Waterfall Keys

[ciao_accordion]

type of one piece key formed of and entirely in plastic,
with a rounded or sloped nose - as opposed to the typical
key made of wood, with a flat plastic, ivory, celluloid, cellulose
or (nowadays, typically) Lexan keytop accompanied by a small,
separate piece to cover the wood tip "nose area"

not wanting to muddy up the Ranco thread, but for
future readers maybe i should post my reasons
for reluctance towards the waterfall keys

and it's great when someone DOES find one still
with some life left in 'em, of course, but
generally speaking:

Plastic absolutely has a finite lifespan

Plastic is inherently brittle

that lifespan is considerably shortened if
subject to high, extended temperatures
(like a hot attic)
or extended exposure to Sunlight
or exposure to air rich in volatiles
or exposure (during cleaning) to reactive chemicals

early plastic technology was not advanced enough to
formulate protection against UV light (it was ages
before they even realized the vulnerability)
nor did manufacturing generally even understand
that plastics of the time were not 100% stable
and could become reactive under various conditions
(actually, some OEM's still don't seem to understand that)

this results in the obvious - that a Waterfall key if
broken will require you to MANUFACTURE a replacement
somehow (because you will simply never find an
exact spare unless you find an EXACT accordion
match same year same assembly line to butcher for parts)

so esthetics aside, it is advisable to those of you
who want an old accordion to fix up for fun and laughs
to, as a general rule, avoid bidding on ebay treasures with
waterfall keys... resist...

and if you DO succumb to that unusual accordion,
hopefully you find one like Jack did that is cool
enough to be worth fixing up a bit...

in other words, the plastic keys are an achillies heel...
no matter how much you fix up the rest of the accordion
once the keys go south on you, that's the end of it.

ciao

Ventura

[ike]

Post by ciao_accordion
type of one piece key formed of and entirely in plastic,
with a rounded or sloped nose - as opposed to the typical
key made of wood, with a flat plastic, ivory, celluloid, cellulose
or (nowadays, typically) Lexan keytop accompanied by a small,
separate piece to cover the wood tip "nose area"
not wanting to muddy up the Ranco thread, but for
future readers maybe i should post my reasons
for reluctance towards the waterfall keys
and it's great when someone DOES find one still
with some life left in 'em, of course, but
Plastic absolutely has a finite lifespan
Plastic is inherently brittle
that lifespan is considerably shortened if
subject to high, extended temperatures
(like a hot attic)
or extended exposure to Sunlight
or exposure to air rich in volatiles
or exposure (during cleaning) to reactive chemicals
early plastic technology was not advanced enough to
formulate protection against UV light (it was ages
before they even realized the vulnerability)
nor did manufacturing generally even understand
that plastics of the time were not 100% stable
and could become reactive under various conditions
(actually, some OEM's still don't seem to understand that)
this results in the obvious - that a Waterfall key if
broken will require you to MANUFACTURE a replacement
somehow (because you will simply never find an
exact spare unless you find an EXACT accordion
match same year same assembly line to butcher for parts)
so esthetics aside, it is advisable to those of you
who want an old accordion to fix up for fun and laughs
to, as a general rule, avoid bidding on ebay treasures with
waterfall keys... resist...
and if you DO succumb to that unusual accordion,
hopefully you find one like Jack did that is cool
enough to be worth fixing up a bit...
in other words, the plastic keys are an achillies heel...
no matter how much you fix up the rest of the accordion
once the keys go south on you, that's the end of it.
ciao
Ventura

Well, look here man, there is no certainty in this world. As for replacing
one key like that, if the one you find is a little bit bigger, you could
file the edges a little.
Occasionally it seems that they made the plastic with possibly white lead
pigment and all the keys start to cruble when the pigment oxidizes. Those
accordions would best be butrchered for the reeds etc.
But a lot of them with the waterfall keys are pretty stable if they did not
use whatever that stuff was to make them white.
Phil, I thought your beef with the waterfall keys was somehow about the
technical considerations of playing them. But for the fact that most of them
are smaller keyboards than the circa 19 inch pro size, I thought that WF
might have had some slight utility based on individual preference. I am not
sure it makes much difference to most players anyway.

[Excelsior960]

hi Ike,

that makes sense about the white lead powder,
as that was certainly a widely used and readily
available "core component" of a lot of things
back in that day...

introduced into a plastic blend, then it
provided beauty but eventually reacted as
an impurity... interesting

as for complaints about the feel, you might
find this interesting...

originally Hammond organs had a waterfall sort of
squared front end to their keyboards, and one of the
"Moves" a lot of players took on was the palm driven
slide up or down the keys as they went wild on their
improvs whether Rockin' or Jazzin' it up

when Hammond switched to the more modern look of the
aircraft-carrier shaped keytop (and subsequent open front)
older players literally would cut their palms open at times
forgetting in the heat of performance that they couldn't
make that move on the new type keyboards...

this was one significant reason Hammond's electronic
"replacements" for the old Tone Generator models really
never gainsd wide enough acceptance to keep them afloat...

ciao

Ventura

[ike]

Post by Excelsior960
hi Ike,
that makes sense about the white lead powder,
as that was certainly a widely used and readily
available "core component" of a lot of things
back in that day...
introduced into a plastic blend, then it
provided beauty but eventually reacted as
an impurity... interesting
as for complaints about the feel, you might
find this interesting...
originally Hammond organs had a waterfall sort of
squared front end to their keyboards, and one of the
"Moves" a lot of players took on was the palm driven
slide up or down the keys as they went wild on their
improvs whether Rockin' or Jazzin' it up
when Hammond switched to the more modern look of the
aircraft-carrier shaped keytop (and subsequent open front)
older players literally would cut their palms open at times
forgetting in the heat of performance that they couldn't
make that move on the new type keyboards...
this was one significant reason Hammond's electronic
"replacements" for the old Tone Generator models really
never gainsd wide enough acceptance to keep them afloat...
ciao
Ventura

that's really interesting. Reckon the accordion makers took a cue from that,
altho palm glissando on an accordion was probably not what they wanted to
do. Or not?

[ciao_accordion]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by ciao_accordion
type of one piece key formed of and entirely in plastic,
with a rounded or sloped nose - as opposed to the typical
key made of wood, with a flat plastic, ivory, celluloid, cellulose
or (nowadays, typically) Lexan keytop accompanied by a small,
separate piece to cover the wood tip "nose area"
not wanting to muddy up the Ranco thread, but for
future readers maybe i should post my reasons
for reluctance towards the waterfall keys
and it's great when someone DOES find one still
with some life left in 'em, of course, but
Plastic absolutely has a finite lifespan
Plastic is inherently brittle
that lifespan is considerably shortened if
subject to high, extended temperatures
(like a hot attic)
or extended exposure to Sunlight
or exposure to air rich in volatiles
or exposure (during cleaning) to reactive chemicals
early plastic technology was not advanced enough to
formulate protection against UV light (it was ages
before they even realized the vulnerability)
nor did manufacturing generally even understand
that plastics of the time were not 100% stable
and could become reactive under various conditions
(actually, some OEM's still don't seem to understand that)
this results in the obvious - that a Waterfall key if
broken will require you to MANUFACTURE a replacement
somehow (because you will simply never find an
exact spare unless you find an EXACT accordion
match same year same assembly line to butcher for parts)
so esthetics aside, it is advisable to those of you
who want an old accordion to fix up for fun and laughs
to, as a general rule, avoid bidding on ebay treasures with
waterfall keys... resist...
and if you DO succumb to that unusual accordion,
hopefully you find one like Jack did that is cool
enough to be worth fixing up a bit...
in other words, the plastic keys are an achillies heel...
no matter how much you fix up the rest of the accordion
once the keys go south on you, that's the end of it.
ciao
Ventura

Interested in hearing from someone who prefers "waterfall" style keyboard on accordions? I used enjoy discussions with you and Ventura years ago on this group. I am the Smitty with too many accordions also known as "Ron"!

Professional accordion players DO use waterfall keyboards! One is Slavko Avsenik of Slovenia. Take a close look at his youtubes - there are many. The Hohner Morino VM has a "waterfall" keyboard! I have one! Why I prefer it? Less problems with keys getting caught on something and lifted far enough to bend the rod going to the valve leaving a key sticking way above the keyboard - or some child picking at keys on an unattended accordion with the same result! Especially on tone chamber models like the Morino VM, as Avsenik plays, because each key lifts two valves - one normal one and one going to the tone chamber valve! When the rods are bent they are extremely difficult to bend back and the valves usually have to be removed and reseated. Not a simple "bend back into shape" operation! The waterfall keyboard on the Morino is wooden keys with celluloid tops folded into a snub nosed key leaving nothing to get under a key and lift it improperly!

From a performance standpoint I see no difference in the two types of keyboards. I play both kinds! Joe Petosa once told me all professionals want to feel the keytop hitting the felt underneath it! On waterfall style keyboards the same felt is there only under the keyboard so why a different feel? -- well - Petosas are not waterfall style accordions - I guess!

Now plastic keys - another story - I despise them! I had them on a Hohner Verdi III that was purchased in Holland after WWII. A truly nice accordion EXCEPT for those keys! My fingers must leave something on the keys that eats away at plastic as the most played keys in the middle of the keyboard pitted and discolored the keys and gave them an irritating rough feel on playing them! I traded that accordion but wish I had kept it and just replaced the keys with real keys.

I read the thread on the squeezebox newsgroup where you and Ventura discussed "waterfall" keyboards and this is what I would have added if I could have!



Ciao! for now!

Ron Smith

[Alan Sharkis]

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by ciao_accordion
type of one piece key formed of and entirely in plastic,
with a rounded or sloped nose - as opposed to the typical
key made of wood, with a flat plastic, ivory, celluloid, cellulose
or (nowadays, typically) Lexan keytop accompanied by a small,
separate piece to cover the wood tip "nose area"
not wanting to muddy up the Ranco thread, but for
future readers maybe i should post my reasons
for reluctance towards the waterfall keys
and it's great when someone DOES find one still
with some life left in 'em, of course, but
Plastic absolutely has a finite lifespan
Plastic is inherently brittle
that lifespan is considerably shortened if
subject to high, extended temperatures
(like a hot attic)
or extended exposure to Sunlight
or exposure to air rich in volatiles
or exposure (during cleaning) to reactive chemicals
early plastic technology was not advanced enough to
formulate protection against UV light (it was ages
before they even realized the vulnerability)
nor did manufacturing generally even understand
that plastics of the time were not 100% stable
and could become reactive under various conditions
(actually, some OEM's still don't seem to understand that)
this results in the obvious - that a Waterfall key if
broken will require you to MANUFACTURE a replacement
somehow (because you will simply never find an
exact spare unless you find an EXACT accordion
match same year same assembly line to butcher for parts)
so esthetics aside, it is advisable to those of you
who want an old accordion to fix up for fun and laughs
to, as a general rule, avoid bidding on ebay treasures with
waterfall keys... resist...
and if you DO succumb to that unusual accordion,
hopefully you find one like Jack did that is cool
enough to be worth fixing up a bit...
in other words, the plastic keys are an achillies heel...
no matter how much you fix up the rest of the accordion
once the keys go south on you, that's the end of it.
ciao
Ventura

Interested in hearing from someone who prefers "waterfall" style keyboard on accordions? I used enjoy discussions with you and Ventura years ago on this group. I am the Smitty with too many accordions also known as "Ron"!
Professional accordion players DO use waterfall keyboards! One is Slavko Avsenik of Slovenia. Take a close look at his youtubes - there are many. The Hohner Morino VM has a "waterfall" keyboard! I have one! Why I prefer it? Less problems with keys getting caught on something and lifted far enough to bend the rod going to the valve leaving a key sticking way above the keyboard - or some child picking at keys on an unattended accordion with the same result! Especially on tone chamber models like the Morino VM, as Avsenik plays, because each key lifts two valves - one normal one and one going to the tone chamber valve! When the rods are bent they are extremely difficult to bend back and the valves usually have to be removed and reseated. Not a simple "bend back into shape" operation! The waterfall keyboard on the Morino is wooden keys with celluloid tops folded into a snub nosed key leaving nothing to get under a key and lift it improperly!
From a performance standpoint I see no difference in the two types of keyboards. I play both kinds! Joe Petosa once told me all professionals want to feel the keytop hitting the felt underneath it! On waterfall style keyboards the same felt is there only under the keyboard so why a different feel? -- well - Petosas are not waterfall style accordions - I guess!
Now plastic keys - another story - I despise them! I had them on a Hohner Verdi III that was purchased in Holland after WWII. A truly nice accordion EXCEPT for those keys! My fingers must leave something on the keys that eats away at plastic as the most played keys in the middle of the keyboard pitted and discolored the keys and gave them an irritating rough feel on playing them! I traded that accordion but wish I had kept it and just replaced the keys with real keys.
I read the thread on the squeezebox newsgroup where you and Ventura discussed "waterfall" keyboards and this is what I would have added if I could have!
Ciao! for now!
Ron Smith

Interesting. My accordion needed some minor repairs and my teacher
took it to the technician and gave me a loaner for the week. That
loaner was a Galanti 18-1/2 incher, made in Italy, not New York. He
said he got it from somebody who offered it to him for a very good
price some years ago, and he bought it for just the purpose that I
encountered.

The handle on the very beat up case was a macrame'd piece of clothes
line that was substituting for a long-gone original one. But that
loaner accordion -- wow! Yes it needs some work, and someday somebody
looking for a nice lightweight box would appreciate its very mellow
reeds and put the money into those minor repairs. But the keys were
waterfall keys, with very light longitudinal stripes in them. I guess
the intent was to imitate ivory. They were some kind of plastic, but
in excellent condition. I didn't have any problem switching from my
19-1/4 inch keyboard to its slightly narrower keys, and the bass
buttons had the same spacing as a larger accordion. So, waterfall
keys were provided by other manufacturers as well.

Take care,

Alan

[ciao_accordion]

hi Alan,

actually ALL Galanti's were built in Italy... the New York
connection was simply the family sending some of their
own to New York to establish a store, and sell direct
gettng more of the market and a better margin

the Galanti's prospered and established themselves
strongly in the Institutional Organ market, as well
as commercial, with the Ahlborn-Galanti and Viscount
brands. they got out of the Accordion business, but
the models built from about 1938 through about 1958
are innovative, well built, well engineered, and
well voiced accordions indeed

their original factory still exists, and is still in the
hands of the Family, though i heard they have gotten
out of the Music business now. (the Italian branch, anyhow)

ciao

Ventura

[ike milligan]

Post by ciao_accordion
hi Alan,
actually ALL Galanti's were built in Italy... the New York
connection was simply the family sending some of their
own to New York to establish a store, and sell direct
gettng more of the market and a better margin
the Galanti's prospered and established themselves
strongly in the Institutional Organ market, as well
as commercial, with the Ahlborn-Galanti and Viscount
brands. they got out of the Accordion business, but
the models built from about 1938 through about 1958
are innovative, well built, well engineered, and
well voiced accordions indeed
their original factory still exists, and is still in the
hands of the Family, though i heard they have gotten
out of the Music business now. (the Italian branch, anyhow)
ciao
Ventura

Are you sure Galanti never mad accordions in NY? I rebuilt one from the
1920's; sure of the decade because the Maj,Min-7th,Dim rows did not have
the strip of plastic that was an innovation in the 1930s and I think
also no air button which most in the 20s had not. Interesting that the
reeds were so rusty I took reeds out of a wrecked Dallape-Wurlitzer or
some such and replaced them all.

[ciao_accordion]

IKE

Are you sure Galanti never made accordions in NY? I rebuilt one from the
1920's; sure of the decade because the Maj,Min-7th,Dim rows did not have
the strip of plastic that was an innovation in the 1930s and I think
also no air button which most in the 20s had not.

Mondaino Italy, Egidio Galanti built the family's first actual factory
in 1917 - his Dad was building accordions before that, then this was where
they made all their accordions into the late 50's when it closed
(as a factory) but was still used as family office HQ. Other factories
they established were for the electronic (Organs, Amps) and guitar markets.
They were among the first to successfully R&D and were competing right there
with Lowrey and the neon-tube vacuum-tube technology stuff we saw in the
original Cordovox and Lowrey Organs back in the day. In comparison, Farfisa
and other fledging concerns didn't have their first viable electronics
to market until Transistors had become the de-facto standard

from what i have researched, they provided bare boxes to a lot of USA and
New York individual shops (which, post WW1 many were small, individually
run in-the-living-room outfits) and of course some went on to grow
(Galizi, Pancotti, loDuca, ItalAm, etc.) into real shops and factories.
As the market "heated up" a number of Italian operations tried to establish
their own "beach-head" in New York and elsewhere. A few were successful, but
Galanti did well and survived mostly because they diversified early on, and
the family members they sent here were sharp, hard working and dedicated.

Gary Galanti became a powerful figure in American MI, and grew the USA Organ
division into a solid modern concern. Viscount and Oberheim. The first
commercially available MIDI Drawbar "module" came out of his efforts

the Italian side developed the AhlbornGalanti (liturgical) organ line,
and eventually founded GeneralElectroMusic (GEM) which itself survived
into the 21st century (though GEM was shuttered finally)

They made some real efforts also to improve Accordion technology, and
apparently had a hand in the development of the first Free Bass, but it
appears they handed off/licensed away the manufacturing, as they were
exiting the Accordion biz. shortly after. I think the Tone-Chamber
era coming along was an "obstacle" they didn't want to tool up for, as
their other Music Biz segments offered less competition.

Pre WW2 their accordions show them to be serious competitors and
contenders. I'll bring this late 30's i've been working on to show
you sometime... it's a cool Black Box obviously designed to
compete with the hot Excelsior 00 that was dragging the market
out of the glitzy art-case vaudeville looking era of accordions.

the Rimini area was not under the influence of Castlefidardo, but
more the Pesaro area which also had Accordion makers (i think that
reedmaker you were interested in last year worked out of Pesaro)
and i think you can see the difference in cosmetics and shaping,
and having to figure out mechanical things on their own, as did
Dallape who also had the protection of "Distance"

no doubt they brought a lot of tooling with them over the
years, and could fix/finish in pre-WW2 New York with the best
of them, but yes the bodies and mechanics all came
from their family factory in Italy

i love the reference to the "little plastic strip" and
when it appeared... i really feel if we tried hard to
line-up all the physical changes in Accordions which
became "common industry standards" we could make a decent
dating system anyone could use...

ciao

Ventura

[ciao_accordion]

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.857899,12.67091,3a,75y,314h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEWHiaZ1FoXNJv4BRvOKLMg!2e0

[ike milligan]

Post by ciao_accordion
IKE

Are you sure Galanti never made accordions in NY? I rebuilt one from the
1920's; sure of the decade because the Maj,Min-7th,Dim rows did not have
the strip of plastic that was an innovation in the 1930s and I think
also no air button which most in the 20s had not.

Mondaino Italy, Egidio Galanti built the family's first actual factory
in 1917 - his Dad was building accordions before that, then this was where
they made all their accordions into the late 50's when it closed
(as a factory) but was still used as family office HQ. Other factories
they established were for the electronic (Organs, Amps) and guitar markets.
They were among the first to successfully R&D and were competing right there
with Lowrey and the neon-tube vacuum-tube technology stuff we saw in the
original Cordovox and Lowrey Organs back in the day. In comparison, Farfisa
and other fledging concerns didn't have their first viable electronics
to market until Transistors had become the de-facto standard
from what i have researched, they provided bare boxes to a lot of USA and
New York individual shops (which, post WW1 many were small, individually
run in-the-living-room outfits) and of course some went on to grow
(Galizi, Pancotti, loDuca, ItalAm, etc.) into real shops and factories.
As the market "heated up" a number of Italian operations tried to establish
their own "beach-head" in New York and elsewhere. A few were successful, but
Galanti did well and survived mostly because they diversified early on, and
the family members they sent here were sharp, hard working and dedicated.
Gary Galanti became a powerful figure in American MI, and grew the USA Organ
division into a solid modern concern. Viscount and Oberheim. The first
commercially available MIDI Drawbar "module" came out of his efforts
the Italian side developed the AhlbornGalanti (liturgical) organ line,
and eventually founded GeneralElectroMusic (GEM) which itself survived
into the 21st century (though GEM was shuttered finally)
They made some real efforts also to improve Accordion technology, and
apparently had a hand in the development of the first Free Bass, but it
appears they handed off/licensed away the manufacturing, as they were
exiting the Accordion biz. shortly after. I think the Tone-Chamber
era coming along was an "obstacle" they didn't want to tool up for, as
their other Music Biz segments offered less competition.
Pre WW2 their accordions show them to be serious competitors and
contenders. I'll bring this late 30's i've been working on to show
you sometime... it's a cool Black Box obviously designed to
compete with the hot Excelsior 00 that was dragging the market
out of the glitzy art-case vaudeville looking era of accordions.
the Rimini area was not under the influence of Castlefidardo, but
more the Pesaro area which also had Accordion makers (i think that
reedmaker you were interested in last year worked out of Pesaro)
and i think you can see the difference in cosmetics and shaping,
and having to figure out mechanical things on their own, as did
Dallape who also had the protection of "Distance"
no doubt they brought a lot of tooling with them over the
years, and could fix/finish in pre-WW2 New York with the best
of them, but yes the bodies and mechanics all came
from their family factory in Italy
i love the reference to the "little plastic strip" and
when it appeared... i really feel if we tried hard to
line-up all the physical changes in Accordions which
became "common industry standards" we could make a decent
dating system anyone could use...
ciao
Ventura

What that accordion had on the front was "Galanti & Sons, New York" and
so it was made in Italy, from what you say. No doubt in my mind from the
mechanical bass design where all the adjacent pistons were metal-to
metal, it was 1920's era. I've not a picture of it unfortunately unless
I track down the owner and get one.

[s***@gmail.com]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Johann Pascher]

I also would like to see more activity in this group, but is the way thing go all moved to different groups with more modern features.
Website based groups or to groups on Facebook. Not all is getting better is like a new diversity that makes thing more difficult to find.
Still there are now much more Videos and pictures in the web as 15 Years ago, but searching for relabel Information is more difficult as ever.
Reading through and searching in old style text based Groups was easy. Best regards Johann

[ike milligan]

Post by ciao_accordion
type of one piece key formed of and entirely in plastic,
with a rounded or sloped nose - as opposed to the typical
key made of wood, with a flat plastic, ivory, celluloid, cellulose
or (nowadays, typically) Lexan keytop accompanied by a small,
separate piece to cover the wood tip "nose area"
not wanting to muddy up the Ranco thread, but for
future readers maybe i should post my reasons
for reluctance towards the waterfall keys
and it's great when someone DOES find one still
with some life left in 'em, of course, but
Plastic absolutely has a finite lifespan
Plastic is inherently brittle
that lifespan is considerably shortened if
subject to high, extended temperatures
(like a hot attic)
or extended exposure to Sunlight
or exposure to air rich in volatiles
or exposure (during cleaning) to reactive chemicals
early plastic technology was not advanced enough to
formulate protection against UV light (it was ages
before they even realized the vulnerability)
nor did manufacturing generally even understand
that plastics of the time were not 100% stable
and could become reactive under various conditions
(actually, some OEM's still don't seem to understand that)
this results in the obvious - that a Waterfall key if
broken will require you to MANUFACTURE a replacement
somehow (because you will simply never find an
exact spare unless you find an EXACT accordion
match same year same assembly line to butcher for parts)
so esthetics aside, it is advisable to those of you
who want an old accordion to fix up for fun and laughs
to, as a general rule, avoid bidding on ebay treasures with
waterfall keys... resist...
and if you DO succumb to that unusual accordion,
hopefully you find one like Jack did that is cool
enough to be worth fixing up a bit...
in other words, the plastic keys are an achillies heel...
no matter how much you fix up the rest of the accordion
once the keys go south on you, that's the end of it.
ciao
Ventura

Dya know dude? I have a Ranco Antonio 1930's vintage with the waterfall
keys which look to be in great shape and nice and white, and which I
almost grabbed out of storage to restore, when I realized that the metal
parts of the mechanism to run the palm switch were lacking. You know,
the two flat brass pieces with the notches that catch in another part
and alternately push up. Also when you avoided them like a plague, I was
put off.
I have several less high-class instruments made much later in which the
waterfall keys are crumbling ( which I mentioned earlier ) possibly from
the pigment mixed into the plastic. As you said later in the thread, and
very truly, it is different stuff to get the same result.
Enjoyed seeing you when you stopped by a year or so back!

Ciao