reed wax

[Andrew Watson]

Hi everyone,

I just found your discussion group and would like to get an opinion on reed wax. I found a heavily abused 48 base 3/4 reed 1960's accordion that I would like to practice repairing. One of the repairs will be derusting the reeds and restoring the leathers. Likely the end product will need tuning, but from what I gather, the tuning is largely a function of intact leathers, clean reeds, and proper waxing of the reed blocks. I would like to make my own reed wax as I have large quantities of beeswax and pine rosin available from my family beekeeping business. Researching prior discussions in this forum I find many different recipes as well as recommendations that using the wrong mixture could adversely affect sound quality (not a major issue on this instrument).

A summary of previously suggested recipes follows:

Pietro Deiro is quoted to "use one part bee's wax + 1/8 Linseed oil + 1/4 rosin then heat slowly until it smokes ...."

another recipe uses "4 ounces of beeswax, 2 ounces fiddle rosin, then heat, and when mixed well, add 2 tablespoons of olive oil."

One contributor's formula "learned from Gordan Pietanesi (Columbo & Sons
Accordion in San Francisco) was 2/3 part beeswax to 1/3 part rosin."

Another from "Accordion Repairs Made Easy" by John Reuter, lists the following
ingredients: equal parts of beeswax and rosin, plus "a few drops of linseed
oil or lanolin."

In another recipe 'Alfred Fisher lists the ingredients as beeswax with 5% rosin and 10% glycerin."

Neil at Hobgoblin Crawley suggests 2/3 beeswax,1/3 rosin (light colour is best) and some drops of linseed oil,there is also a few drops of a secret ingredient but this is not necessary

Ike says: To make wax it's best to have clear pine rosin and beeswax that has not been overheated during production by the vendors. melt the rosin and stir in the wax and then heat to 250 deg. Fahrenheit. add small amount of olive oil
glycerin or motor oil and stir

Most of these recipes have a 3:2 ratio of beeswax to rosin, though they range from 1:1 to 9:1. They also vary significantly in amount and type of oil used.

In beekeeping, hive bodies are hot dipped in paraffin wax with pine rosin added as essentially a plastic to make the paraffin more durable. I think that rosin in reed wax may give a hard plastic property to reduce brittleness and possibly improve adhesion. I would guess that the oil inhibits the drying/hardening of beeswax. Any thoughts on this?
Does anyone want to comment on their results when comparing different ratios of these ingredients? If the contributors who suggest that the "wrong ratio" will adversely affect sound quality are correct, it seems there must be a lot of instruments with poor sound due to reed wax ...... or is this not so important?
Oh, and is there a proper temperature for the instrument to get the best flow control?

Thanks, Andrew

[Excelsior960]

well Andrew,

first (aside from hello) let me congratulate you for the
nice bit of research and data mining you have done... there
is a wealth of information in the archives here on most
accordion related subjects

you are correct, as far as I understand it, that the Rosin gives
the needed strength and resistance to softening (on a hot sunny day)
while the "Volatile" component, whatever source, gives the
resistance to shrinkage, drying out, cracking.

one caution if I might - IMHO so many accordions that
have terribly dried out wax and leathers, and then rust too,
have been stored in an attic where it suffered both extremes of
temperature... the winter cold causing condensation that
unabated leads to rust... the heat drying out not only the
obvious leathers and wax, but also dimentionally much of the
wooden body, possibly truly ruining the accordion.

if the bass action is also rusted, and the body parts have separated,
you might want to consider spending your time on a different candidate.

if you are near enough to Washington DC, i can perhaps give you
enough un-rusted reeds to at least save you that effort

if you want to de-rust the reeds, some
naptha with a touch of added surfectants
was what my friend Walter would soak the
reeds in for a month or so before physical
removal of the rust (tight fitting lids on the jars,
and leave them in an outdoor shed or something)
or if you have a mechanic friend with a parts-bath
brush them up under that first

Ike has some tips on making your own wax-pouring tool
or you can buy one from Deffner in Virginia

ciao

Ventura

[Ike Milligan]

Post by Excelsior960
well Andrew,
first (aside from hello) let me congratulate you for the
nice bit of research and data mining you have done... there
is a wealth of information in the archives here on most
accordion related subjects
you are correct, as far as I understand it, that the Rosin gives
the needed strength and resistance to softening (on a hot sunny day)
while the "Volatile" component, whatever source, gives the
resistance to shrinkage, drying out, cracking.
one caution if I might - IMHO so many accordions that
have terribly dried out wax and leathers, and then rust too,
have been stored in an attic where it suffered both extremes of
temperature... the winter cold causing condensation that
unabated leads to rust... the heat drying out not only the
obvious leathers and wax, but also dimentionally much of the
wooden body, possibly truly ruining the accordion.
if the bass action is also rusted, and the body parts have separated,
you might want to consider spending your time on a different candidate.
if you are near enough to Washington DC, i can perhaps give you
enough un-rusted reeds to at least save you that effort
if you want to de-rust the reeds, some
naptha with a touch of added surfectants
was what my friend Walter would soak the
reeds in for a month or so before physical
removal of the rust (tight fitting lids on the jars,
and leave them in an outdoor shed or something)
or if you have a mechanic friend with a parts-bath
brush them up under that first
Ike has some tips on making your own wax-pouring tool
or you can buy one from Deffner in Virginia
ciao
Ventura

The idea of using transmission fluid is intereting instead of 3-in1 oil as I
suggested. I have used liquid WD-40 and it is veryh good at loosening rust.
I am told in a post in this group that it is bad for reeds, probably because
it is acid. Wood alcohol and ammonia with some tranny fluid (not the
cross-dressing kind -- I know some of you would try to make poor jokes)
would be interesting. I would not have the time to be soaking reeds for
months. Another interesting idea would be boiling in olive oil, if thatwill
not de-temper the steel. I have to use the elbow grease in the method I use
now, which involves doing one side of a block at a time and keeping the
reeds in a row except when I do soak them overnight, which does not remove
th rust.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-27, Ike Milligan <***@mindspring.com> wrote:

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
The idea of using transmission fluid is intereting instead of 3-in1 oil as I
suggested. I have used liquid WD-40 and it is veryh good at loosening rust.
I am told in a post in this group that it is bad for reeds, probably because
it is acid. Wood alcohol and ammonia with some tranny fluid (not the
cross-dressing kind -- I know some of you would try to make poor jokes)
would be interesting. I would not have the time to be soaking reeds for
months. Another interesting idea would be boiling in olive oil, if thatwill
not de-temper the steel.

You mean "anneal", I presume (render softer). Tempering follows
heating to a critical point (when it is no longer attracted to a magnet,
a red glow), and quenching, which makes the steel *very* hard and
brittle. Tempering is then the process of heating it to a certain
temperature for a time proportional to the thickness (IIRC, about 1 hour
per inch of thickness, to allow the heat to soak to the middle). Select
the temperature (to match the steel alloy) and hold it at that
temperature to get a specific reduced hardness better for the
application.

Above a certain temperature, the steel is fully annealed (made
as soft as it gets), and to get harder you have to heat, quench, and
temper again.

Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.

From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
colors vs tempering temperature.:

======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================

So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.

Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting. And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

Post by Ike Milligan
I have to use the elbow grease in the method I use
now, which involves doing one side of a block at a time and keeping the
reeds in a row except when I do soak them overnight, which does not remove
th rust.

Understood. Perhaps scratch an identifier into the reed plate
in case they get mixed up somehow.

Good Luck,
DoN.

[Ike Milligan]

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
The idea of using transmission fluid is intereting instead of 3-in1 oil as I
suggested. I have used liquid WD-40 and it is veryh good at loosening rust.
I am told in a post in this group that it is bad for reeds, probably because
it is acid. Wood alcohol and ammonia with some tranny fluid (not the
cross-dressing kind -- I know some of you would try to make poor jokes)
would be interesting. I would not have the time to be soaking reeds for
months. Another interesting idea would be boiling in olive oil, if thatwill
not de-temper the steel.

You mean "anneal", I presume (render softer). Tempering follows
heating to a critical point (when it is no longer attracted to a magnet,
a red glow), and quenching, which makes the steel *very* hard and
brittle. Tempering is then the process of heating it to a certain
temperature for a time proportional to the thickness (IIRC, about 1 hour
per inch of thickness, to allow the heat to soak to the middle). Select
the temperature (to match the steel alloy) and hold it at that
temperature to get a specific reduced hardness better for the
application.
Above a certain temperature, the steel is fully annealed (made
as soft as it gets), and to get harder you have to heat, quench, and
temper again.
Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.
From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================
So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.
Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting. And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

Post by Ike Milligan
I have to use the elbow grease in the method I use
now, which involves doing one side of a block at a time and keeping the
reeds in a row except when I do soak them overnight, which does not remove
th rust.

Understood. Perhaps scratch an identifier into the reed plate
in case they get mixed up somehow.
Good Luck,
DoN.

So boiling in Olive oil would not affect the temper or cause annealing? that
would be my point since olive oil would boil at a pretty low temperature.

[DoN. Nichols]

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.
From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================
So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.
Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting. And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
So boiling in Olive oil would not affect the temper or cause annealing? that
would be my point since olive oil would boil at a pretty low temperature.

Boiling in Olive oil *might* affect the temper (soften
somewhat), depending on just what the current hardness is.

If the steel is purple, then it would certainly soften it
somewhat. If is dark blue, perhaps not, and if light blue, even less
so. There are other colors for different tempers outside the range I
quoted above.

But -- note that I mentioned that the temperature given in the
website (I think that figure came from Wikipedia) would *vary* with the
actual composition of your current batch of olive oil. So boil it and
*measure* the temperature. And ideally, take a spare reed, measure the
hardness before boiling, then boil it for at least 15 minutes, and
measure it again after it cools. (This is presuming that you have a
Rockwell hardness gauge -- and ideally one capable of "superficial"
measurements (needed for thin materials, as the standard depends on a
certain amount of deformation below the surface -- superficial uses
lower forces, and thus deforms only a shallow layer.

For that matter -- as the more volatile ingredients in the olive
oil boil off, the boiling point will increase, so *always* measure the
temperature just before you dunk in your reeds.

Good Luck,
DoN.

[Ike Milligan]

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.
From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================
So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.
Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting. And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
So boiling in Olive oil would not affect the temper or cause annealing? that
would be my point since olive oil would boil at a pretty low temperature.

Boiling in Olive oil *might* affect the temper (soften
somewhat), depending on just what the current hardness is.
If the steel is purple, then it would certainly soften it
somewhat. If is dark blue, perhaps not, and if light blue, even less
so. There are other colors for different tempers outside the range I
quoted above.
But -- note that I mentioned that the temperature given in the
website (I think that figure came from Wikipedia) would *vary* with the
actual composition of your current batch of olive oil. So boil it and
*measure* the temperature. And ideally, take a spare reed, measure the
hardness before boiling, then boil it for at least 15 minutes, and
measure it again after it cools. (This is presuming that you have a
Rockwell hardness gauge -- and ideally one capable of "superficial"
measurements (needed for thin materials, as the standard depends on a
certain amount of deformation below the surface -- superficial uses
lower forces, and thus deforms only a shallow layer.
For that matter -- as the more volatile ingredients in the olive
oil boil off, the boiling point will increase, so *always* measure the
temperature just before you dunk in your reeds.
Good Luck,
DoN.

A little unclear what is meant by these colors. All my reeds are shiny
silvery color with a dark blue patina on one side.

[DoN. Nichols]

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.
From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================
So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.
Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting. And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
So boiling in Olive oil would not affect the temper or cause annealing? that
would be my point since olive oil would boil at a pretty low temperature.

Boiling in Olive oil *might* affect the temper (soften
somewhat), depending on just what the current hardness is.
If the steel is purple, then it would certainly soften it
somewhat. If is dark blue, perhaps not, and if light blue, even less
so. There are other colors for different tempers outside the range I
quoted above.
But -- note that I mentioned that the temperature given in the
website (I think that figure came from Wikipedia) would *vary* with the
actual composition of your current batch of olive oil. So boil it and
*measure* the temperature. And ideally, take a spare reed, measure the
hardness before boiling, then boil it for at least 15 minutes, and
measure it again after it cools. (This is presuming that you have a
Rockwell hardness gauge -- and ideally one capable of "superficial"
measurements (needed for thin materials, as the standard depends on a
certain amount of deformation below the surface -- superficial uses
lower forces, and thus deforms only a shallow layer.
For that matter -- as the more volatile ingredients in the olive
oil boil off, the boiling point will increase, so *always* measure the
temperature just before you dunk in your reeds.
Good Luck,
DoN.

A little unclear what is meant by these colors. All my reeds are shiny
silvery color with a dark blue patina on one side.

The colors are officially what is produced by shining the
surface and then heating in air to the specified temperature. (The
color is defined by the thickness of the oxide layer.

The top surface of the reed has been ground/filed after
tempering, so it will not show the color (except perhaps around the head
of the rivet).

But the underside will be the color in question, as there is no
work done on the native surface of the reed stock (flat spring stock)
after tempering.

The reed material comes in a long roll of flat spring stock of a
specified width, which is usually cut down to width a bit to make the
reeds. And -- the thickness may be profiled by mounting on the magnetic
chuck of a surface grinder and ground down to an approximation of the
right profile before cutting apart to make individual reeds. (In this
case, the reed is likely across the width of the stock so a number can
be ground in a single pass. The magnetic chuck which holds it down for
grinding also sinks away the heat of the grinding, so it does not affect
the temper. Of course, after the reed is mounted, it still will need
fine tuning at a minimum, but the pre-mounting grinding saves a lot of
the tuning time at the factory where they are making a number of reeds
of a given pitch.

So -- look at the color of the underside, that is the color in
question.

You say "dark blue", which says that any temperature above 590
Degrees F (310 Degrees C) *will* change the temper, and something *at*
590 may make some small change depending on how long it was held at
temperature during tempering.

So measure the temperature of the boiling olive oil, and see
what it is -- since each batch is likely to boil at a slightly different
temperature.

Good luck,
DoN.

[Ike Milligan]

Post by DoN. Nichols

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan

Post by DoN. Nichols
Looking up the boiling point (and understanding that it varies
with the actual composition of the oil batch in question, so measure
your batch) I see 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), which is up into the
range for tempering hardened spring steel.
From the Wikipedia entry on tempering, I find the following
======================================================================
Purple ? 282C (540F) ? surgical tools, punches, stone carving tools
Dark blue ? 310C (590F) ? screwdrivers, wrenches
Light blue ? 337C (639F) ? springs, wood-cutting saws
======================================================================
So -- it is up to you to determine the color of the steel
(underside, of course) and decide whether extra time at that temperature
would change it. I would expect "springs", which would probably not
change much, but if it is "Dark blue" it is likely to change somewhat,
and if it is "Purple", it certainly would change. (These colors are
what you would get by heating polished metal to that temperature in air,
so you would not see the same changes in color from boiling it in oil.
Of course, you could mix in a lighter oil to reduce the boiling
point, but this might not give the proper cleaning and de-rusting.
And
the lighter oil would boil away first, slowly changing the boiling point
upwards. And really -- the de-rusting either requires mechanical
abrasion of some form, or a chemical attack which absolutely should
*not* be used with reeds riveted to *any* dissimilar metal.

[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
So boiling in Olive oil would not affect the temper or cause annealing? that
would be my point since olive oil would boil at a pretty low temperature.

Boiling in Olive oil *might* affect the temper (soften
somewhat), depending on just what the current hardness is.
If the steel is purple, then it would certainly soften it
somewhat. If is dark blue, perhaps not, and if light blue, even less
so. There are other colors for different tempers outside the range I
quoted above.
But -- note that I mentioned that the temperature given in the
website (I think that figure came from Wikipedia) would *vary* with the
actual composition of your current batch of olive oil. So boil it and
*measure* the temperature. And ideally, take a spare reed, measure the
hardness before boiling, then boil it for at least 15 minutes, and
measure it again after it cools. (This is presuming that you have a
Rockwell hardness gauge -- and ideally one capable of "superficial"
measurements (needed for thin materials, as the standard depends on a
certain amount of deformation below the surface -- superficial uses
lower forces, and thus deforms only a shallow layer.
For that matter -- as the more volatile ingredients in the olive
oil boil off, the boiling point will increase, so *always* measure the
temperature just before you dunk in your reeds.
Good Luck,
DoN.

A little unclear what is meant by these colors. All my reeds are shiny
silvery color with a dark blue patina on one side.

The colors are officially what is produced by shining the
surface and then heating in air to the specified temperature. (The
color is defined by the thickness of the oxide layer.
The top surface of the reed has been ground/filed after
tempering, so it will not show the color (except perhaps around the head
of the rivet).
But the underside will be the color in question, as there is no
work done on the native surface of the reed stock (flat spring stock)
after tempering.
The reed material comes in a long roll of flat spring stock of a
specified width, which is usually cut down to width a bit to make the
reeds. And -- the thickness may be profiled by mounting on the magnetic
chuck of a surface grinder and ground down to an approximation of the
right profile before cutting apart to make individual reeds. (In this
case, the reed is likely across the width of the stock so a number can
be ground in a single pass. The magnetic chuck which holds it down for
grinding also sinks away the heat of the grinding, so it does not affect
the temper. Of course, after the reed is mounted, it still will need
fine tuning at a minimum, but the pre-mounting grinding saves a lot of
the tuning time at the factory where they are making a number of reeds
of a given pitch.
So -- look at the color of the underside, that is the color in
question.
You say "dark blue", which says that any temperature above 590
Degrees F (310 Degrees C) *will* change the temper, and something *at*
590 may make some small change depending on how long it was held at
temperature during tempering.
So measure the temperature of the boiling olive oil, and see
what it is -- since each batch is likely to boil at a slightly different
temperature.
Good luck,
DoN.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Ike Milligan]

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Post by Ike Milligan
I have to use the elbow grease in the method I use
now, which involves doing one side of a block at a time and keeping the
reeds in a row except when I do soak them overnight, which does not remove
th rust.

Understood. Perhaps scratch an identifier into the reed plate
in case they get mixed up somehow.
Good Luck,
DoN.

The reason I use elbow grease is that I don't soak all the reeds due to time
constraints. I don't have any problem keeping them in order. In some
instances, like when I am working on diatonics, I will make tiny Roman
Numerals on the bass reed plates which saves the trouble of making a chart
of where they go. Piano and Chromatic accordions I know where all the reeds
go, and usually they are narked on one side at the factory to keep the sets
distinguished. If not I do mark the sets with a slash or 2 or 3 in the
manner of the factory, if I am soaking and washing the whole lot.

On very very old accordions where the mechanical parts like valve pallets
are hand made, these should all be numbered, since unlike uniformly created
parts, they might not fit well when swapped around even if they look about
the same.

[Andrew Watson]

Thanks Ventura for the suggestions and reed offer. I am on the West Coast so will need to derust the existing reeds. The purpose of this project is primarily the experience of restoring an accordion before I work on several more valuable instruments. The final result may or may not be a quality instrument. Even in it's present form, with detached reed plates in the bellows and off-pitch rusted reeds, it can be fun to play in a pinch; just be sure to throw a lot of chords into the polka to get the general feeling of the tune.

When you mention naptha, do you mean butane lighter fluid, Coleman lantern fuel, or kerosene? Also, what is the surfactant? I have seen auto mechanics use biodegradable laundry detergent in a heated dip tank for cleaning large engine parts. When you mention using a parts bath, could this be used instead of the month soak? A carburetor cleaner dip overnight would likely remove much of the rust but also may affect properties of the reed. I believe this may be acidic and could result in some acid embrittlement of the reed steel. Previous mention has been made of avoiding exposure of dissimilar metals to acid but in the case of carburetor cleaner dips, this may not be an issue or is it? I do want to avoid removing the reeds from their blocks. Further suggestions are appreciated.

Andrew

[DoN. Nichols]

Post by Andrew Watson
Thanks Ventura for the suggestions and reed offer. I am on the West
Coast so will need to derust the existing reeds. The purpose of this
project is primarily the experience of restoring an accordion before I
work on several more valuable instruments.
When you mention naptha, do you mean butane lighter fluid, Coleman
lantern fuel, or kerosene?

Probably coleman lantern fuel. Butane lighter fluid would be
dangerous to work with, and would evaporate way too quickly.

Post by Andrew Watson
Also, what is the surfactant? I have seen
auto mechanics use biodegradable laundry detergent in a heated dip tank
for cleaning large engine parts. When you mention using a parts bath,
could this be used instead of the month soak?

At a guess, yes. Followed by a wash in clean water (hot also,
so when you pull the reed plates out, you can have them dry rather
quickly, before rust starts on the reeds. But this would not remove
rust, just things like the remaining wax stuck to the reed plates.

Post by Andrew Watson
A carburetor cleaner dip
overnight would likely remove much of the rust but also may affect
properties of the reed.

I would avoid that, It is nasty stuff (you want protective
gloves when handling it -- and outdoors, or in a fume hood) and
certainly would not remove rust -- more likely to create it, especially
with the hardened steel reeds and mild steel rivets plus the aluminum
reed plates. Just *asking* for galvanic corrosion.

Washing soda and salt can also be used for removing rust -- *if*
you don't have dissimilar metals involved firmly connected to each
other).

Post by Andrew Watson
I believe this may be acidic and could result
in some acid embrittlement of the reed steel. Previous mention has been
made of avoiding exposure of dissimilar metals to acid but in the case
of carburetor cleaner dips, this may not be an issue or is it?

The last time I looked at such dips, there was no detail as to
what was in it -- just lots of warnings -- and this was back around 1978
or so, before the warnings got out of hand. If you want a clue as to
what is in something like this -- get the MSDS for it (Material Safety
Data Sheet). Anything sold in the US should have one available for any
hazardous components. (There is even a MSDS for water -- just for
completeness. -- You *could* drown in it, after all. :-)

Post by Andrew Watson
I do
want to avoid removing the reeds from their blocks. Further suggestions
are appreciated.

Do you mean the reed plates, or the wooden blocks to which the
reed plates are attached? If the latter, avoid *all* dips. They will
soak into the wood. (And I get the impression that some of your reed
plates have already voluntarily separated from the reed blocks. :-)

Note that I have no experience with wax mounted reeds. I work
on English construction concertinas, which have each individual reed in
a dovetailed "shoe" which simply slides into the reed pan from the edge.
And with those, I use a hard jeweler's screwdriver blade to scrape rust
from the reed, while supporting it on the other side. No chemical means
at all.

Good Luck,
DoN.

[Ike Milligan]

Post by DoN. Nichols

Post by Andrew Watson
Thanks Ventura for the suggestions and reed offer. I am on the West
Coast so will need to derust the existing reeds. The purpose of this
project is primarily the experience of restoring an accordion before I
work on several more valuable instruments.
When you mention naptha, do you mean butane lighter fluid, Coleman
lantern fuel, or kerosene?

Probably coleman lantern fuel. Butane lighter fluid would be
dangerous to work with, and would evaporate way too quickly.

Post by Andrew Watson
Also, what is the surfactant? I have seen
auto mechanics use biodegradable laundry detergent in a heated dip tank
for cleaning large engine parts. When you mention using a parts bath,
could this be used instead of the month soak?

At a guess, yes. Followed by a wash in clean water (hot also,
so when you pull the reed plates out, you can have them dry rather
quickly, before rust starts on the reeds. But this would not remove
rust, just things like the remaining wax stuck to the reed plates.

Post by Andrew Watson
A carburetor cleaner dip
overnight would likely remove much of the rust but also may affect
properties of the reed.

I would avoid that, It is nasty stuff (you want protective
gloves when handling it -- and outdoors, or in a fume hood) and
certainly would not remove rust -- more likely to create it, especially
with the hardened steel reeds and mild steel rivets plus the aluminum
reed plates. Just *asking* for galvanic corrosion.
Washing soda and salt can also be used for removing rust -- *if*
you don't have dissimilar metals involved firmly connected to each
other).

Post by Andrew Watson
I believe this may be acidic and could result
in some acid embrittlement of the reed steel. Previous mention has been
made of avoiding exposure of dissimilar metals to acid but in the case
of carburetor cleaner dips, this may not be an issue or is it?

The last time I looked at such dips, there was no detail as to
what was in it -- just lots of warnings -- and this was back around 1978
or so, before the warnings got out of hand. If you want a clue as to
what is in something like this -- get the MSDS for it (Material Safety
Data Sheet). Anything sold in the US should have one available for any
hazardous components. (There is even a MSDS for water -- just for
completeness. -- You *could* drown in it, after all. :-)

Post by Andrew Watson
I do
want to avoid removing the reeds from their blocks. Further suggestions
are appreciated.

Do you mean the reed plates, or the wooden blocks to which the
reed plates are attached? If the latter, avoid *all* dips. They will
soak into the wood. (And I get the impression that some of your reed
plates have already voluntarily separated from the reed blocks. :-)
Note that I have no experience with wax mounted reeds. I work
on English construction concertinas, which have each individual reed in
a dovetailed "shoe" which simply slides into the reed pan from the edge.
And with those, I use a hard jeweler's screwdriver blade to scrape rust
from the reed, while supporting it on the other side. No chemical means
at all.
Good Luck,
DoN.

The speculation here is really not helpful despite your good intent. Use the
method I advocated and only that method to clean accordion reeds. If zinc
reed plates are involved, try adding saddle soap to the misture and/or clear
ammonia. Not another kind of soap, saddle soap.

[Excelsior960]

well the naptha is clear, but after he adds the extras
it's kinda oxblood tinted - he said something about penetrating
oil too - i'll have to ask him for more info

i've seen his reeds soaking in the jars (have some here)
and they look pretty clean - i guess some of the rust
is lifted away which i would think the less physical
scraping you have to do maybe the beter as the
less GOOD metal will be abraded too

i mean if there's actual cratering on the tongue that's
too much - the reed has to have strength where
it flexes at those ridiculously fast speeds - and where
they are rusted aside from the flex point - mass is
the key - mass above the flex point vs below

well, i'm kinda lazy too - even a 3/4 student accordion
has 246 individual reed-tongues in the treble - guess
i'd be more inclined to find a clean box that got
dropped on it's nose by Fed-Ex from an EBay sale
and just swap the reeds - spend my time on the fine tuning
rather than the burnishing

but like you say it's mostly for learning so go for it!

ciao

Ventura

[Ike Milligan]

"Andrew Watson" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a112d6aa-58e5-4574-88a4-***@googlegroups.com...



Thanks Ventura for the suggestions and reed offer. I am on the West Coast
so will need to derust the existing reeds. The purpose of this project is
primarily the experience of restoring an accordion before I work on several
more valuable instruments. The final result may or may not be a quality
instrument. Even in it's present form, with detached reed plates in the
bellows and off-pitch rusted reeds, it can be fun to play in a pinch; just
be sure to throw a lot of chords into the polka to get the general feeling
of the tune.

When you mention naptha, do you mean butane lighter fluid, Coleman lantern
fuel, or kerosene? Also, what is the surfactant? I have seen auto
mechanics use biodegradable laundry detergent in a heated dip tank for
cleaning large engine parts. When you mention using a parts bath, could
this be used instead of the month soak? A carburetor cleaner dip overnight
would likely remove much of the rust but also may affect properties of the
reed. I believe this may be acidic and could result in some acid
embrittlement of the reed steel. Previous mention has been made of avoiding
exposure of dissimilar metals to acid but in the case of carburetor cleaner
dips, this may not be an issue or is it? I do want to avoid removing the
reeds from their blocks. Further suggestions are appreciated.

Andrew

What I use now to loosen the rust and gunk on old reeds is wood alcohol with
a little 3-in-1 oil, which sinks to the bottom of the container, and I then
use Fischer's method of scraping with a single edge blade. FOr the blued
side of the reed i lift with fingernail but now started wearing thin
synthetic exam gloves and push up the reed to wipe vigorously with light
cotton flannel or Rags in a Box product. The under a strong light I look to
see if that side needs scraping for which purpose I use a trapezoid box
cutter blade or feeler gauges ground to pointed shapes. The box cutter blade
is used with care as it will scratch the reed and that's why I scrape the
upper side with a single-edge blade witha shim under it. The shim has a
chamfered edge to fit under the reed and lift it. After cleaning the
underside I check for correct reed profile and tip clearance. It is
important to thouroughly dry the reed after clening even the underside near
the rivet. of any oil residue, or alcohol by forcing the wipe corner in
there.

[Andrew Watson]

Thanks DoN and Ventura,
Still working on elucidating the composition of the solution for softening rust on the reeds. A dark red tinted color suggests addition of transmission fluid to the mixture. Transmission oil would give greater anti-corrosive properties to the soak solution. This is actually used by machinists who add it to diesel as a economical substitute for cutting oil. I would guess the penetrating oil is added to reduce the increased viscosity caused by the addition of the ATF. Probably best not to use WD-40 due to its water attracting properties? Another possible ingredient which would give the oxblood red color would be Marvel Mystery Oil. Well, enough of hypothesizing, any further suggestions on the "reed PLATE restoration elixir of the masters", ie specific ingredients and ratios is greatly appreciated.

PS. As I have only recently become aware of this group and do not know the background of contributors. If I am infringing on proprietary recipes, please advise me of this.

[DoN. Nichols]

Post by Andrew Watson
Thanks DoN and Ventura,
Still working on elucidating the composition of the solution for
softening rust on the reeds. A dark red tinted color suggests addition
of transmission fluid to the mixture. Transmission oil would give
greater anti-corrosive properties to the soak solution. This is actually
used by machinists who add it to diesel as a economical substitute for
cutting oil.

A formula for a penetrating oil can be found on the net. It is
called "Ed's Red" and is also used as (and was developed as) a bore
cleaning oil for firearms. But machinists and others find it quite
useful for freeing stuck bolts (because of rust) and many other things.

Here is the official site:

<http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm>

Lots of extra to read about why things were chosen for it, but
about half-way down is the actual formula.

Some use an abbreviated version -- just ATF and Acetone.

Keep either form away from the MOTS covering, as the acetone
will soften it.

Post by Andrew Watson
I would guess the penetrating oil is added to reduce the
increased viscosity caused by the addition of the ATF. Probably best
not to use WD-40 due to its water attracting properties?

It can be used to carry away water if you follow it up with
something else. It does not particularly *attract* the water, but it
*does* absorb it -- and if left in place, the hydrocarbon components
will evaporate, leaving the water in place.

Post by Andrew Watson
Another
possible ingredient which would give the oxblood red color would be
Marvel Mystery Oil.

Which is also a pretty good penetrating oil, FWIW.

Post by Andrew Watson
Well, enough of hypothesizing, any further
suggestions on the "reed PLATE restoration elixir of the masters", ie
specific ingredients and ratios is greatly appreciated.

Above I have a link to the formula of "Ed's Red" which may be a
good choice.

Post by Andrew Watson
PS. As I have only recently become aware of this group and do not know
the background of contributors. If I am infringing on proprietary
recipes, please advise me of this.

Certainly Ed's Red has been placed in the public domain, as
documented in the web page to which I provided a link.

Good luck,
DoN.

[Ike Milligan]

"Andrew Watson" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:18f4359b-20c8-4b7c-8db2-***@googlegroups.com...
Hi everyone,

I just found your discussion group and would like to get an opinion on reed
wax. I found a heavily abused 48 base 3/4 reed 1960's accordion that I
would like to practice repairing. One of the repairs will be derusting the
reeds and restoring the leathers. Likely the end product will need tuning,
but from what I gather, the tuning is largely a function of intact leathers,
clean reeds, and proper waxing of the reed blocks. I would like to make my
own reed wax as I have large quantities of beeswax and pine rosin available
from my family beekeeping business. Researching prior discussions in this
forum I find many different recipes as well as recommendations that using
the wrong mixture could adversely affect sound quality (not a major issue on
this instrument).

A summary of previously suggested recipes follows:

Pietro Deiro is quoted to "use one part bee's wax + 1/8 Linseed oil + 1/4
rosin then heat slowly until it smokes ...."

another recipe uses "4 ounces of beeswax, 2 ounces fiddle rosin, then heat,
and when mixed well, add 2 tablespoons of olive oil."

One contributor's formula "learned from Gordan Pietanesi (Columbo & Sons
Accordion in San Francisco) was 2/3 part beeswax to 1/3 part rosin."

Another from "Accordion Repairs Made Easy" by John Reuter, lists the
following
ingredients: equal parts of beeswax and rosin, plus "a few drops of linseed
oil or lanolin."

In another recipe 'Alfred Fisher lists the ingredients as beeswax with 5%
rosin and 10% glycerin."

Neil at Hobgoblin Crawley suggests 2/3 beeswax,1/3 rosin (light colour is
best) and some drops of linseed oil,there is also a few drops of a secret
ingredient but this is not necessary

Ike says: To make wax it's best to have clear pine rosin and beeswax that
has not been overheated during production by the vendors. melt the rosin and
stir in the wax and then heat to 250 deg. Fahrenheit. add small amount of
olive oil
glycerin or motor oil and stir

Most of these recipes have a 3:2 ratio of beeswax to rosin, though they
range from 1:1 to 9:1. They also vary significantly in amount and type of
oil used.

In beekeeping, hive bodies are hot dipped in paraffin wax with pine rosin
added as essentially a plastic to make the paraffin more durable. I think
that rosin in reed wax may give a hard plastic property to reduce
brittleness and possibly improve adhesion. I would guess that the oil
inhibits the drying/hardening of beeswax. Any thoughts on this?
Does anyone want to comment on their results when comparing different ratios
of these ingredients? If the contributors who suggest that the "wrong
ratio" will adversely affect sound quality are correct, it seems there must
be a lot of instruments with poor sound due to reed wax ...... or is this
not so important?
Oh, and is there a proper temperature for the instrument to get the best
flow control?

Thanks, Andrew

Any of these recipes will work. The fischer may have a typo. i would tend to
favor more rosin and the lest oil and use olive oil or glycerin. The purpose
of the oil is to keep it from being to stiff to work with, but too much oil
will smear on the reedplates when you are handling them and may get all over
making a sticky mess. I use 50-50 and add oil a spoonfui at a time when
using it, if it gets hard to work with. The exact formula is not too
critical, a matter of individual preference. The accordion will definitely
be out of tune if the reeds were rusty. The less they are gouged the better,
and be careful not to score the reed plate when manually removing the rust.
No chemicals.

[Andrew Watson]

Very interesting discussion on boiling reeds in oil. Looks like the boiling point of olive oil is @570 degrees F while the smoking point is @375-400 degrees F.
The flash point is around 600F (http://www.oliveoilsource.com/asktheexpert/what-boiling-point-olive-oil)so, for safety, you probably don't want to get to boiling anyway.
Can anyone explain the mechanism of action of hot oil on rust. I would guess that hot oil is better able to penetrate or intercalate into the oxide and, thus, work to break the bonds linking molecules of the oxide. Another possibility is that heating increases molecular vibration of the oxide, thus allowing more chances for the oil to penetrate between oxide to shear particles off. Does this really work, and how effective is it?
Also, there will likely be slight residual of oil after this treatment. Is olive oil as protective as petroleum oils?

Andrew

[Ike Milligan]

"Andrew Watson" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:8a420ed8-142a-4087-925a-***@googlegroups.com...
Very interesting discussion on boiling reeds in oil. Looks like the boiling
point of olive oil is @570 degrees F while the smoking point is @375-400
degrees F.
The flash point is around 600F
(http://www.oliveoilsource.com/asktheexpert/what-boiling-point-olive-oil)so,
for safety, you probably don't want to get to boiling anyway.
Can anyone explain the mechanism of action of hot oil on rust. I would
guess that hot oil is better able to penetrate or intercalate into the oxide
and, thus, work to break the bonds linking molecules of the oxide. Another
possibility is that heating increases molecular vibration of the oxide, thus
allowing more chances for the oil to penetrate between oxide to shear
particles off. Does this really work, and how effective is it?
Also, there will likely be slight residual of oil after this treatment. Is
olive oil as protective as petroleum oils?

Andrew

I have not tried it yet, but Olive Oil would probably be slightly acid, so I
would not rely on it to protect the metal. I would probably mix some clear
ammonia with wood alcohol and rinse and manually dry the reeds, then use
pure mineral oil, and wipe that thoroughly as well. I don't know what the
Italians use for protective oil, and I have noticed on the German Atlantic
IV for example, the blued area of the reeds seem to have a greater tendency
to rust than Italian reeds. There may be no perfect way to do any of this,
and there are various methods seeking the same results.

Ike

[William Tay]

If you're interested in exploring the world of psychedelic mushrooms, you may be wondering if it's possible to buy shrooms online. The good news is that there are many online retailers that offer a wide range of mushroom products, from dried mushrooms to capsules, edibles, and more.
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/57?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/148?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/120
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/118?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/54
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/46
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/16?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/11?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/6
With a large selection of products to meet our clients' demands, Buy Psychedelics Online Shop is your go-to online drug store. We work hard to provide the best Legal Psychedelics For Sale Online and ship our goods internationally from everywhere.
With a large selection of products to meet our clients' demands, Buy Psychedelics Online Shop is your go-to online drug store. We work hard to provide the best Legal Psychedelics For Sale Online and ship our goods internationally from everywhere.

Buy Dmt Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/610
Buy Top Quality Pink Runtz In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/609
Buy Packwood disposable catrideges Online
Order Big Chief Gummies Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/603
Order Edibles in Europe
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/598
Buy Gel Tabs Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/596
Buy One Up Psilocybin mushrooms microdose Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/596
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/593
Buy Percs Online M30
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/573
Buy XTC Pills Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/571
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/570
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/567
Buy Ketamine Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy Trippy Flip Chocolate Bars In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy Space Caps Chocolate Bars Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy LSD Sheet In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/560
Buy Trippy Money 500mg Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/560
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/556
Order LSD Sheet Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/552
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/548
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/546
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/540
Buy Escasy Pills Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/539
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/53
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/520
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/517
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/501?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/497
Buy Dried Golden Teacher Mushrooms Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/490
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/487
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/477
Buy Hash Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/473
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/471
Buy Stiizy Pods Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/458
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/456
Buy FRYD Catrideges Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/455
Buy Psilo-Vibin Infused Chocolate bars
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/455
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/415
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/412
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/409
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/407
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/386
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/320?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/275
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/251
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/217
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/208?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/206
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/183?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/633
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/630
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/628?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/626
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/625?single

[William Tay]

If you're interested in exploring the world of psychedelic mushrooms, you may be wondering if it's possible to buy shrooms online. The good news is that there are many online retailers that offer a wide range of mushroom products, from dried mushrooms to capsules, edibles, and more.
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/57?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/148?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/120
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/118?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/54
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/46
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/16?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/11?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/6
With a large selection of products to meet our clients' demands, Buy Psychedelics Online Shop is your go-to online drug store. We work hard to provide the best Legal Psychedelics For Sale Online and ship our goods internationally from everywhere.
With a large selection of products to meet our clients' demands, Buy Psychedelics Online Shop is your go-to online drug store. We work hard to provide the best Legal Psychedelics For Sale Online and ship our goods internationally from everywhere.

Buy Dmt Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/610
Buy Top Quality Pink Runtz In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/609
Buy Packwood disposable catrideges Online
Order Big Chief Gummies Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/603
Order Edibles in Europe
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/598
Buy Gel Tabs Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/596
Buy One Up Psilocybin mushrooms microdose Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/596
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/593
Buy Percs Online M30
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/573
Buy XTC Pills Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/571
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/570
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/567
Buy Ketamine Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy Trippy Flip Chocolate Bars In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy Space Caps Chocolate Bars Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/566
Buy LSD Sheet In USA
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/560
Buy Trippy Money 500mg Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/560
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/556
Order LSD Sheet Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/552
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/548
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/546
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/540
Buy Escasy Pills Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/539
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/53
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/520
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/517
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/501?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/497
Buy Dried Golden Teacher Mushrooms Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/490
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/487
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/477
Buy Hash Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/473
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/471
Buy Stiizy Pods Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/458
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/456
Buy FRYD Catrideges Online
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/455
Buy Psilo-Vibin Infused Chocolate bars
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/455
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/420
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/415
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/412
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/409
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/407
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/388
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/386
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/320?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/275
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/251
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/217
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/208?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/206
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/183?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/128
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/633
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/630
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/628?single
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/626
https://t.me/psychedelicmasters/625?single