Bugari

[Russ]

I am also looking at a 3 reed 96 bass bugari armondo converter - info on bugari quality etc would be appreciated.

So far the 3 companies I am looking at are Vignoni, Bugari and Pigini. Comments on these 3 makers will be helpful. Thanks

[ike milligan]

Post by Russ
I am also looking at a 3 reed 96 bass bugari armondo converter - info on bugari quality etc would be appreciated.
So far the 3 companies I am looking at are Vignoni, Bugari and Pigini. Comments on these 3 makers will be helpful. Thanks

I question whether that would be as helpful as if you actually tried the
accordion before you bought it. Names don't necessarily mean much. Some
names mean you are statistically likely to find good quality, and other
names mean you are statistically highly unlikely to find it. As to which
one of the 3 names you mentioned fits in the latter category, I'll leave
it to others to comment.

[ciao_accordion]

Post by Russ
Vignoni, Bugari and Pigini.

was wondering if you are in driving range of New York or Washington DC?

then you could see and try a Pigini (close to if not the model itself)
for yourself

Pigini is one of the most complete manufacturers on the
planet today, their brands (and subs) have stood the test of time,
and therefore hold there value well.

I don't know where to get Bugari or Vignoni in the States, but there
is a Bugari dealer in Canada somewhere

as far as i know, only 2 manufacturers still have tooling
to make Convertor bass mechanisms, so no matter whose name
is on the front, they have to buy that hardware assembly
from Pigini or Victoria to install in their accordion.

as far as reed-types go nowadays, and considering there is NO
R&D devoted to reedmaking (experimenting with different types
and grades of Steel, different scale designs, etc.) there is after
all such a SAMENESS to reeds - and since everyone is tuning digitally
a great sameness to Tuning as well - therefore, would you really want
to pay a small fortune in labor for some man to sit at a workbench
and basically with tinsnips and files and trimmers and drillbits
try and uniformly make reeds from raw aluminum and sheets of Steel?

or would it make much more sense to have a reed-master devote that
time to FINISHING a set of reeds cut with incredible precision
by a laser guided digitally controlled robotic machine that also can
measure and match the perfect embouchure to each reed tongue, then set
the rivet with absolute precision of force and position?

the time spent to making each reed sing perfectly is NOW what is
the key part of the process, overall, IMHO

but only time will tell if todays accordions are still in tune
and playing well into their 50th or 60th year of use. Excelsior
converted their in house reed making entirely to Hand Finished
many decades ago, and their focus on "Finishing" was evident even
in old Student models that still are in tune... (Excelsior is no
longer a principle brand)

what is more important? the result, or the ability for 75% of the
people selling accordions on eBay to say "Hand Made Reeds"
and other half-lies and damned lies

(one popular lie... this boat Anchor of a 27 pound 3 reed treble Cordovox
with single spindle action came off the same assembly line
and uses the same reeds as a Super 6 (what a crock) - so although these pieces
of crap weren't worth $200 bucks used for 3 or 4 decades, now
we can once again sucker fools on ebay into bidding 5, 6, 900 dollars
for one because we've salted so much disinformation and rumor
around the dumb-ass accordion community they actually believe
they are buying a Scandalli - of course these people wouldn't recognise
a pro-Scandalli built in his time if it bit them on the ass)

that's why IKE is so right to urge you to try 'em play 'em because
really, now, reed quality is better discerned in the response
and tone of the reed. This does vary greatly between new accordions
regardless of price (which is no longer a reliable indicator of
quality level) and regardless of "hype" in the specifcations

there are a miniscule number of models and brands of Accordion that i would
even consider buying sight-unseen new built to manufacturers specifications
and few i would trust to build one to mine

but as you say, the type you want is hard to find, so you
are more willing to take the risk...

ciao

Ventura

[ike milligan]

Post by ciao_accordion

Post by Russ
Vignoni, Bugari and Pigini.

was wondering if you are in driving range of New York or Washington DC?
then you could see and try a Pigini (close to if not the model itself)
for yourself
Pigini is one of the most complete manufacturers on the
planet today, their brands (and subs) have stood the test of time,
and therefore hold there value well.
I don't know where to get Bugari or Vignoni in the States, but there
is a Bugari dealer in Canada somewhere
as far as i know, only 2 manufacturers still have tooling
to make Convertor bass mechanisms, so no matter whose name
is on the front, they have to buy that hardware assembly
from Pigini or Victoria to install in their accordion.
as far as reed-types go nowadays, and considering there is NO
R&D devoted to reedmaking (experimenting with different types
and grades of Steel, different scale designs, etc.) there is after
all such a SAMENESS to reeds - and since everyone is tuning digitally
a great sameness to Tuning as well - therefore, would you really want
to pay a small fortune in labor for some man to sit at a workbench
and basically with tinsnips and files and trimmers and drillbits
try and uniformly make reeds from raw aluminum and sheets of Steel?
or would it make much more sense to have a reed-master devote that
time to FINISHING a set of reeds cut with incredible precision
by a laser guided digitally controlled robotic machine that also can
measure and match the perfect embouchure to each reed tongue, then set
the rivet with absolute precision of force and position?
the time spent to making each reed sing perfectly is NOW what is
the key part of the process, overall, IMHO
but only time will tell if todays accordions are still in tune
and playing well into their 50th or 60th year of use. Excelsior
converted their in house reed making entirely to Hand Finished
many decades ago, and their focus on "Finishing" was evident even
in old Student models that still are in tune... (Excelsior is no
longer a principle brand)
what is more important? the result, or the ability for 75% of the
people selling accordions on eBay to say "Hand Made Reeds"
and other half-lies and damned lies
(one popular lie... this boat Anchor of a 27 pound 3 reed treble Cordovox
with single spindle action came off the same assembly line
and uses the same reeds as a Super 6 (what a crock) - so although these pieces
of crap weren't worth $200 bucks used for 3 or 4 decades, now
we can once again sucker fools on ebay into bidding 5, 6, 900 dollars
for one because we've salted so much disinformation and rumor
around the dumb-ass accordion community they actually believe
they are buying a Scandalli - of course these people wouldn't recognise
a pro-Scandalli built in his time if it bit them on the ass)
that's why IKE is so right to urge you to try 'em play 'em because
really, now, reed quality is better discerned in the response
and tone of the reed. This does vary greatly between new accordions
regardless of price (which is no longer a reliable indicator of
quality level) and regardless of "hype" in the specifcations
there are a miniscule number of models and brands of Accordion that i would
even consider buying sight-unseen new built to manufacturers specifications
and few i would trust to build one to mine
but as you say, the type you want is hard to find, so you
are more willing to take the risk...
ciao
Ventura

As informative as this screed is, Phil, I want to add my 2d here. I
can't recall if I recounted the stories of accordions recently made in
Italy that people have brought to me that had garbage reeds. One was an
Excelsior (Pigini) and the other was Titano.

Excelsior reeds were in the remoter past, seldom if ever the best
available, even going back to the 30's era and on up until it was sold
to scammers. The reeds were never really hand-made in any Excelsior I
have seen. They were always pretty good, but never the absolute best. I
sort of know reeds, as I have played the best and the worst. In the
early to mid last century, people knew how to make reeds by hand, and
still do in Russia, and I don't know where else, but won't rule it out.
the so-called "hand made" reeds you specially order on a new accordion
are actually "a mano" which the sellers interpret to themselves as "hand
finished" when it used to mean "hand made".

Only one new accordion I have seen on the market today has seemingly
hand-made reeds, the Cotati which somebody sent me the bass side to
repair, not repairable BTW because of the crap Chinese materials, and
had to be sent back to Accordion Lab to have a new one from China
ordered. But I was somewhat astonished by what appeared to be Russian
hand-made reeds, or if hand-finished, masterfully done.

So-called H.M. reeds from Italy nowadays don't actually hold a candle to
the Russian reeds. They are not bad, but not the best ever made. Never
buy an new Italian accordion from dealer stock. Order special reeds,
like Binci, or maybe Salpa bombrada reeds (If I have the word right,
bombrada means rounded not flat surface). These are not hand-made, but
not the export quality garbage the neo-criminals put in the new Italian
accordions, which you will be sorry you bought.

i have seen and played the best hand-made reeds from the 1930's, and on
back, and not every accordion by a long shot had them, but all the reeds
made through the 1960's were better than the crap the big boys put in
most of the accordions coming out of Italy now. Don't even get me
started on naming the irritating culprits.

[ciao_accordion]

Post by ike milligan
can't recall if I recounted the stories of accordions recently made in
Italy that people have brought to me that had garbage reeds. One was an
Excelsior (Pigini) and the other was Titano.

yes, i recall, and it made me kinda sad

Post by ike milligan
Excelsior reeds were in the remoter past, seldom if ever the best
available, even going back to the 30's era and on up until it was sold
to scammers. The reeds were never really hand-made in any Excelsior

i agree, but what so impressed me through the decades was the consistency,
the reliability, and the sound always proclaimed "Excelsior" - so not
handmade or the best, but sure a good value and always competitive.
I sure played a lot of gigs on Excelsior, and they had the only in-house
electronics dept in the MIDI era - R&D and Manufacturing right there.

Post by ike milligan
But I was somewhat astonished by what appeared to be Russian
hand-made reeds, or if hand-finished, masterfully done. (cotati)

you know there are still a TON of old Russian Bayan's on the market
for couple hundred dollars...

Post by ike milligan
Binci, or maybe Salpa bombrada reeds (If I have the word right,
bombrada means rounded not flat surface).

yes, they showed me those reeds at FisItalia, as they use them in
their tone-chambered models... held it up across the sunlight...
if i was ordering new, i'd probably give them a try. Luciano uses
them, also, on his leather mounted reed French models

Post by ike milligan
i have seen and played the best hand-made reeds from the 1930's, and on
back, and not every accordion by a long shot had them, but all the reeds
made through the 1960's were better than the crap the big boys put in
most of the accordions coming out of Italy now. Don't even get me
started on naming the irritating culprits.

well at one time there was a distinct difference between the accordions
Faithe "private branded" from Pigini, and the Pigini branded models,
but eventually the bodies and reeds converged, i guess, as the economies
of scale withered and prevented affording much distinction. you (I did)
could play across the several brands at the old showroom and really, you'd
hear the loss of tonal richness when you moved to the Pigini's. I had
hoped the in-house reed equipment would have been upgraded once they brought
what they wanted from the Cemex factory, but i guess they didn't after all.

[ike milligan]

Post by ciao_accordion

Post by ike milligan
can't recall if I recounted the stories of accordions recently made in
Italy that people have brought to me that had garbage reeds. One was an
Excelsior (Pigini) and the other was Titano.

yes, i recall, and it made me kinda sad

Post by ike milligan
Excelsior reeds were in the remoter past, seldom if ever the best
available, even going back to the 30's era and on up until it was sold
to scammers. The reeds were never really hand-made in any Excelsior

i agree, but what so impressed me through the decades was the consistency,
the reliability, and the sound always proclaimed "Excelsior" - so not
handmade or the best, but sure a good value and always competitive.
I sure played a lot of gigs on Excelsior, and they had the only in-house
electronics dept in the MIDI era - R&D and Manufacturing right there.

Post by ike milligan
But I was somewhat astonished by what appeared to be Russian
hand-made reeds, or if hand-finished, masterfully done. (cotati)

you know there are still a TON of old Russian Bayan's on the market
for couple hundred dollars...

Post by ike milligan
Binci, or maybe Salpa bombrada reeds (If I have the word right,
bombrada means rounded not flat surface).

yes, they showed me those reeds at FisItalia, as they use them in
their tone-chambered models... held it up across the sunlight...
if i was ordering new, i'd probably give them a try. Luciano uses
them, also, on his leather mounted reed French models

Post by ike milligan
i have seen and played the best hand-made reeds from the 1930's, and on
back, and not every accordion by a long shot had them, but all the reeds
made through the 1960's were better than the crap the big boys put in
most of the accordions coming out of Italy now. Don't even get me
started on naming the irritating culprits.

well at one time there was a distinct difference between the accordions
Faithe "private branded" from Pigini, and the Pigini branded models,
but eventually the bodies and reeds converged, i guess, as the economies
of scale withered and prevented affording much distinction. you (I did)
could play across the several brands at the old showroom and really, you'd
hear the loss of tonal richness when you moved to the Pigini's. I had
hoped the in-house reed equipment would have been upgraded once they brought
what they wanted from the Cemex factory, but i guess they didn't after all.

I'm not saying old Excelsior reeds were bad. Excelsior gave itself the
task of producing consistently high quality accordions in dependable
quantities, and the ubiquity and uniformity of the brand, with fairly
good reeds, not confusing the consumers with too many models, and
keeping the line of models simple, made it the highly popular and
successful brand it was for so many years. The one with the rocker
switches was probably the best they ever made and still brings a good
price after what, 70 years?
Other people made better accordions but mostly not in the quantity and
consistent model lines. the second line Accordiana, is still better than
the second lines of other popular brands.
Just wanted to correct that impression when I said Excelsior reeds were
not that great.
Now somebody, maybe Pigini is making something that looks like an
Excelsior, but isn't.
Before the big boys bought the name, somebody else took over the company
and was making them using the old Excelsior reeds, which were actually
pretty good, but garbage mechanisms.
Most people reading the group already know this.
I have at least one Model 9 with clean reeds which I plan to restore if
I live. In the 1930s they stamped the date on the blocks.

[Russ]

Thanks for the great info.

Are hand finished reeds the same as Typo a mano?

[Russ]

Yes I like what you say about hand finished reeds. And I agree set up is everything.

I had only heard of three major types of reed 1. the regular durall reed, 2 the tipo a mano, like handmade, 3 a mano, handmade. (once a friend told me about the bompa (sic) rounded reed that Ike mentions).

Is a "hand finished" reed the same as a "tipo a mano" reed, ie are the terms interchangable? Or do the two terms mean different things?

Thanks

[ike milligan]

Post by Russ
Yes I like what you say about hand finished reeds. And I agree set up is everything.
I had only heard of three major types of reed 1. the regular durall reed, 2 the tipo a mano, like handmade, 3 a mano, handmade. (once a friend told me about the bompa (sic) rounded reed that Ike mentions).
Is a "hand finished" reed the same as a "tipo a mano" reed, ie are the terms interchangable? Or do the two terms mean different things?
Thanks

tipo a mano means the same as "hand finished", but that is a different
question than is a "tipo a mano" reed the same as a hand finished reed.

That's like asking is one Ford F-150 the same as another Ford F-150.

[Russ]

OK Thanks Ike. Sort of like that speech in Full Metal Jacket "THIS IS MY RIFLE, THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE.

[ike milligan]

Post by Russ
OK Thanks Ike. Sort of like that speech in Full Metal Jacket "THIS IS MY RIFLE, THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE.

Well see, unless you played some accordion from the 30s with hand-made
reeds, you might not know the feel.

[Russ]

I had a fistalia with handmades, beautiful accordion I had bought from Italo American - Everyone that looked inside it and played it confirmed handmade reeds.

[ike milligan]

Post by Russ
I had a fistalia with handmades, beautiful accordion I had bought from Italo American - Everyone that looked inside it and played it confirmed handmade reeds.

Well.okay.