Discussion:
How to do nice work with celluloid?
(too old to reply)
w.d.
2006-02-20 02:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Everybody,

I have been busy with rebuilding accordions since before the eBay
started. Sometimes, I need to do nice work with celluloid, but avoid
that at all costs and manage to do half way or without it. I wonder if
anyone here in this group was successful with covering big areas on
accordion with new or used celluloid, and also made new halftone keys
with celluloid too. Is there a few tricks to that work that have to be
learned? Could anyone share his successful experience with the
celluloid.

1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
4. Do you use any special glue?
5. How many big area and repairs did you do successfully?
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?

My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!

Please, just don't say I'm doing those things a certain way and leave
questions unanswered.

Sincerely,
W.D.
r***@home.net
2006-02-25 01:28:48 UTC
Permalink
w.d. wrote:
\> 1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?

No, it will dissolve celluloid very quickly
Post by w.d.
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
No need to warm it up. Room temp is what you need.
Post by w.d.
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
1 acetone to 6-8 water. It takes 2-3 hrs to get celluloid to where
you want it. If it takes less time, acetone is too strong. The
celluloid
should not be tacky or mushy on the outside.

You need to get celluoloid to condition of thin soft tortilla wrap.
Post by w.d.
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
piece of something flat, clamps, weights
Post by w.d.
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?
you sandpaper and buff it. Factories use large (14-20") buffs, slow
RPMs. I'd imagine
electriacal buffs will works too. Make sure not to go too fast or you
will burn it.
Post by w.d.
My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!
I've seen people working bare-hand. The solution is very weak, nothing
to
be afraid of. But it will dry your skin, so gloves might help - at
least when
you fish the c-d out of acetone bath.
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-02-25 02:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@home.net
\> 1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?
No, it will dissolve celluloid very quickly
Post by w.d.
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
No need to warm it up. Room temp is what you need.
Post by w.d.
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
1 acetone to 6-8 water. It takes 2-3 hrs to get celluloid to where
you want it. If it takes less time, acetone is too strong. The
celluloid
should not be tacky or mushy on the outside.
You need to get celluoloid to condition of thin soft tortilla wrap.
Post by w.d.
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
piece of something flat, clamps, weights
Post by w.d.
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?
you sandpaper and buff it. Factories use large (14-20") buffs, slow
RPMs. I'd imagine
electriacal buffs will works too. Make sure not to go too fast or you
will burn it.
Post by w.d.
My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!
I've seen people working bare-hand. The solution is very weak, nothing
to be afraid of. But it will dry your skin, so gloves might help - at
least when you fish the c-d out of acetone bath.
No kidding. Is this how you learned it in Russia? What a hard way.
Ike
2006-02-27 11:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@neo.rr.com
Post by r***@home.net
\> 1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?
No, it will dissolve celluloid very quickly
Post by w.d.
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
No need to warm it up. Room temp is what you need.
Post by w.d.
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
1 acetone to 6-8 water. It takes 2-3 hrs to get celluloid to where
you want it. If it takes less time, acetone is too strong. The
celluloid
should not be tacky or mushy on the outside.
You need to get celluoloid to condition of thin soft tortilla wrap.
Post by w.d.
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
piece of something flat, clamps, weights
Post by w.d.
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?
you sandpaper and buff it. Factories use large (14-20") buffs, slow
RPMs. I'd imagine
electriacal buffs will works too. Make sure not to go too fast or you
will burn it.
Post by w.d.
My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!
I've seen people working bare-hand. The solution is very weak, nothing
to be afraid of. But it will dry your skin, so gloves might help - at
least when you fish the c-d out of acetone bath.
No kidding. Is this how you learned it in Russia? What a hard way.
I once worked in the Hobie Cat(amaran) factory in S.L Obispo or somehwere on
the west cost. I thought nothing of sticking my bare hands in full strength
acetone. I was a tough hombre then! Lived in a cave. One morning got up at 5
am to go to work and fell of the side of the mountain in the dark.
w.d.
2006-02-28 13:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Rash for very nice reply. This is most honest discloseure of
so called of "secrets" as applied to accordion repairs. Usually we get
here the answers like - "I do it in certain ways tha tmeasn 'bitting
the bush around'"
Thanks a 1000's times. God Bless you!

PS. I will make the note of it and try it next time when I work with
celluloid. I made a cardinal mistake before, by using full strenght of
acetone.

Walter D.
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 04:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.d.
Thank you Rash for very nice reply. This is most honest discloseure of
so called of "secrets" as applied to accordion repairs. Usually we get
here the answers like - "I do it in certain ways tha tmeasn 'bitting
the bush around'"
Thanks a 1000's times. God Bless you!
PS. I will make the note of it and try it next time when I work with
celluloid. I made a cardinal mistake before, by using full strenght of
acetone.
Walter D.
Good luck with it Walter for you will have a difficult time with that
procedure. It just doesn't work that way at all. And please don't
criticize those of us who don't disclose how to properly do
journeyman's work on this group. Afterall didn't I read where you
criticized Tommy for wanting something for nothing by waiting to bid on
the last day?
If you want to really learn how to properly work with celluloid and to
apply it, then come and study the "secrets" with me for a fee. That
wasn't it.
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 05:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.d.
Thank you Rash for very nice reply. This is most honest discloseure of
so called of "secrets" as applied to accordion repairs. Usually we get
here the answers like - "I do it in certain ways tha tmeasn 'bitting
the bush around'"
Thanks a 1000's times. God Bless you!
PS. I will make the note of it and try it next time when I work with
celluloid. I made a cardinal mistake before, by using full strenght of
acetone.
Walter D.
Good luck with it Walter for you will have a difficult time with that
procedure. It just doesn't work that way at all. And please don't
criticize those of us who don't disclose how to properly do
journeyman's work on this group. Afterall didn't I read where you
criticized Tommy for wanting something for nothing by waiting to bid on
the last day?
If you want to really learn how to properly work with celluloid and to
apply it, then come and study the "secrets" with me for a fee. That
wasn't it.
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 05:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.d.
Thank you Rash for very nice reply. This is most honest discloseure of
so called of "secrets" as applied to accordion repairs. Usually we get
here the answers like - "I do it in certain ways tha tmeasn 'bitting
the bush around'"
Thanks a 1000's times. God Bless you!
PS. I will make the note of it and try it next time when I work with
celluloid. I made a cardinal mistake before, by using full strenght of
acetone.
Walter D.
Good luck with it Walter for you will have a difficult time with that
procedure. It just doesn't work that way at all. And please don't
criticize those of us who don't disclose how to properly do
journeyman's work on this group. Afterall didn't I read where you
criticized Tommy for wanting something for nothing by waiting to bid on
the last day?
If you want to really learn how to properly work with celluloid and to
apply it, then come and study the "secrets" with me for a fee. That
wasn't it.
TommyMemphis
2006-03-02 05:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Steve makes a good point here.

Walter, didn't you rant on about being an artisan who deserved to be
paid for his work?

This thread of yours really begs for an explanation.
If artisans deserve to be paid for their work, don't you feel
hypocritical asking for other artisans to give you information for
free? If you want to be paid for your knowledge, don't you think you
should then be willing to pay for someone else's knowledge?

Just curious about your reasoning, is all. Please splain it tooooo me
Loooocy.
Johann Pascher
2006-03-02 09:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Walter!

The main problem is the health problem working with acetone solutions.
Still it is difficult to explain how to do it, better would be to show
it and work on it together with an experienced person. The explanation
is not completely wrong that Rachid did give.
There is no need to learn to work with celluloid on new Boxes because
it is banned to be produced in Europe any more and the cases are now
covered a different way in mot cases. All the celluloid are old store
material some still comes from Italy. There are no secrets with working
with celluloid at all.

The solution and the time the celluloid is kept in this water acetone
solution is right, if the celluloid is just in the right softness to
pull it over round parts, it should be stretchable to some extend and
sticky enough to glue to the case. The body of the case has to be in a
very nice finish before applying it. Metal scrapers like a knife plaid
or a big raiser blade is used to scrape the surface all even. After a
relative long time of hardening period (all acetone must be gone again)
all is polished very carefully. This is all still not the complete
explanation, but just do your experiments and if you get in trouble you
my contact me in a private mail.
I don't ask for any money as other people do, I am just happy if
some old instrument can be restored in a decent way. There are absolute
no "secrets" all is written down in school books, and there are many
people around here who know how to do it the proper way. Or if you
would have time, you even could do it your self at one of the German
(Austrian) Factories to learn it the right way. And I don't think the
ask for money to show it all to you. Also keep in mind, all the
knowledge of making Accordions in China is exported by Hohner and
German trained Accordion builder. Just a few weeks ago one of this
trainers who travels to China very frequently did make his "master"
exam in building Accordions in Germany. Hohner employs German skilled
accordion builders that are in charge of getting the Chinese production
more and more to a higher standard. There would be more to this subject
too, but I mention it now because if we think there are still "secrets"
we are wrong all is already soled to China, and way should not the rest
of the world also know all the want to know to do the same work?

Best regards, Johann
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 14:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Johann Pascher wrote:
(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
I don't ask for any money as other people do, I am just happy if
some old instrument can be restored in a decent way.
(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
Best regards, Johann
That's a very admirable statement, Johann, but there's a point you are
missing. If Walter D. wants all this information for nothing for that
purpose, then maybe he should give his accordions away for nothing too.
Instead, he wants top dollar for his 'expert' work, but expects
(demands) repair instruction for free.
At one time he says it's a hobby with him and that he's an amateur. The
time, he professes to be an expert in repairs.
According to all that he has sold on ebay, he's in it for the money,
and true, there's nothing wrong with that---but his motives are
questionable when it comes to his "demands" for correct work procedures
on this group, over his intentions.
Some of us have paid dearly in time and money to learn this work
properly and yet he (and you) criticize us for not broadcasting all we
know just to appease the two of you (and others) to become repairmen
for personal gain. That's immature expectations and actions.
Ike
2006-03-04 16:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@neo.rr.com
(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
I don't ask for any money as other people do, I am just happy if
some old instrument can be restored in a decent way.
(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
Best regards, Johann
That's a very admirable statement, Johann, but there's a point you are
missing. If Walter D. wants all this information for nothing for that
purpose, then maybe he should give his accordions away for nothing too.
Instead, he wants top dollar for his 'expert' work, but expects
(demands) repair instruction for free.
At one time he says it's a hobby with him and that he's an amateur. The
time, he professes to be an expert in repairs.
According to all that he has sold on ebay, he's in it for the money,
and true, there's nothing wrong with that---but his motives are
questionable when it comes to his "demands" for correct work procedures
on this group, over his intentions.
Some of us have paid dearly in time and money to learn this work
properly and yet he (and you) criticize us for not broadcasting all we
know just to appease the two of you (and others) to become repairmen
for personal gain. That's immature expectations and actions.
I don't think I am in it for personal gain. I have not found that it is a
way to get rich these days. Instead I am attracted to the workmanship and
history of instruments which I want to preserve. If I can get rich this way,
I will do so.
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 14:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Johann Pascher wrote:

(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
I don't ask for any money as other people do, I am just happy if
some old instrument can be restored in a decent way.
(snip)
Post by Johann Pascher
Best regards, Johann
That's very admirable Johann but there's a point you are missing. If
Walter wants all this information for nothing for that purpose, then
maybe he should give the accordions away for nothing. Instead he wants
top dollar for his 'expert' work but expects instruction for free. At
one time, he says it's a hobby and that he's an amateur. The next time
he professes that he's an expert. According to all that he has sold on
ebay, he's in it for the money and true, there's nothing wrong about
that, but his motives are questionable when it comes to his demands for
correct work procedures on this group. Some of us have paid dearly in
time and money to learn the work properly and yet he criticizes us for
not broadcasting all we know just to appease him. That's rather
immature.
w.d.
2006-03-02 15:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Accordion Repair Secrets or the Gimmicks?

Yes, I'm declaring officially now that I'm professional accordion
repairman, but doing this as a hobby. I see nothig wrong to do
professional work being a hobbyist. I have a right to be the
professional. I'm a former Industrial Techology professor, that was
working with his hands, doing inventions all my professional life.
Accordion repairs is nothing for me. I'm even sorry, that I posed that
question about celluloid. I'm also sorry that I got involved with an
open forum at all. I will throw my link to this forum and never looked
back. Talk about me as much as you want. I had a run down with you
before about the same sao called "secrets" you supposedly have. I
think that you have no secrets at all, because ther're no secrets in
that field. You claimed youself that nothing was changed in accordion
making or repairs in past 60 years. So why you so upset about that code
word "certain way." I kind a like it myself. At least I didn't
mentioned your name. You and that other guy throw my name around like
I'm some kind bad stock salesman. I did not deprive anybody from Enron
stock, so what you want from me?

Before I go, just want to say that, so it gets to you head. I'm not
an average Joe Doe, who picked up old accordion in flea market and is
trying to fix it for his grandmother, who use to play it when young.
Anyway stop talking about me using my name. I do not mentioned
anybody's name. At leat, I have a class.

I'm sure that you yourself are not fully devoting your time to
accordion repairs. I read your advertisemt many times that you're open
on a call only. There are thousands of people like us in America who do
that, and sell accordions on eBay from $500 and up, some are even
running in thousanads of dollars. Not ending list. What I do is only
measured in peanuts in comparison. I just cannot give my work away to
people who're declaring themselves profesionals on this forum or
elsewhere, so they would turn around and sell my hard work for 3-4
times more.

Let them work work it. Anyway, that person didn't wanted to buy from
me. He just wanted to teach me his way of doing business, that is
dictated by the customer, that only gives benefits to one side. He
was not even intended customer or told me that he wants to be one in
advance. Just picked on me for nothing, out of nowhere, accusing me of
bad business practice, trying to mixed me with refuse. What he knows
about the good and bad business. He came out just from the gut of the
Earth, but now I know that those agents are lurking all the time and
watch the next intended victim, slowly but surely. The good people
should be ware of these devils.
I'm doing my own way of doing business. American way of doing
business, and I will not succumb to any pressure from anybody and any
agent who goes afer the people who critize their accordions. Yes, this
fellow is not for sale and don't need additional education from
anybody. Just leave me alone, and do not use my name, please! There is
no sense to waste my time in discussons and defending my good name.
On the end I want to finish that pretending that somebody has soe
secrets in accordion repairs might work in the past. Nowadys its
gimmick that wouldn't work. The 99.9% of information has been in public
domain and nobody can do nothing about it. Period!
Again! Please don't use my name! I'm privite citizen and my name
doesn't belong to the public for the grab. Have the class!
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-02 17:55:36 UTC
Permalink
w.d. wrote:
<<
Accordion Repair Secrets or the Gimmicks?

Yes, I'm declaring officially now that I'm professional accordion
repairman, but doing this as a hobby. I see nothig wrong to do
professional work being a hobbyist. I have a right to be the
professional. I'm a former Industrial Techology professor, that was
working with his hands, doing inventions all my professional life.
Accordion repairs is nothing for me. I'm even sorry, that I posed that
question about celluloid. I'm also sorry that I got involved with an
open forum at all. I will throw my link to this forum and never
looked
back. Talk about me as much as you want. I had a run down with you
before about the same sao called "secrets" you supposedly have. I
think that you have no secrets at all, because ther're no secrets in
that field. You claimed youself that nothing was changed in accordion
making or repairs in past 60 years. So why you so upset about that code

word "certain way." I kind a like it myself. At least I didn't
mentioned your name. You and that other guy throw my name around like

I'm some kind bad stock salesman. I did not deprive anybody from Enron
stock, so what you want from me?
Walter, you may mention my name any time you want..and you have, many
times in the past and just lately.
If you are a professional accordion repairman as you have declared
above, then why is it necessary for you to ask "how-to" or "how do you
do this" questions?
Insofar as "secrets," that is your word use and not mine. You begrudge
me for knowing things that you don't know? How sad. I worked hard for
my education and experience and yet you begrudge that. As a professor
you should welcome my educational time developing myself honestly.

<<
Before I go, just want to say that, so it gets to you head. I'm not

an average Joe Doe, who picked up old accordion in flea market and is
trying to fix it for his grandmother, who use to play it when young.
Anyway stop talking about me using my name. I do not mentioned
anybody's name. At leat, I have a class.
Never be ashamed of your name for that is one thing that belongs only
to you---that, and your social security number. You say you have class?
Not when you criticize me for not telling you how to do accordion work.
You have repeatedly condemned me through time for not disclosing what I
knew. And you have mentioned other people's names, so stop making those
ridiculous comments.

<<
I'm sure that you yourself are not fully devoting your time to
accordion repairs. I read your advertisemt many times that you're open
on a call only.
No, you are not sure for you've never been here. It's true that I
worked by appointment only all these years instead of maintaining
hours. This freed time for long distance customers arriving late at
night or early morning; teaching students; performing; customer sales;
and accordion work scheduling and yes, even banking, post office and
UPS shipping. Full time? Of course, Walter, and since 1953.

<<
There are thousands of people like us in America who do
that, and sell accordions on eBay from $500 and up, some are even
running in thousanads of dollars. Not ending list. What I do is only
measured in peanuts in comparison. I just cannot give my work away to
people who're declaring themselves profesionals on this forum or
elsewhere, so they would turn around and sell my hard work for 3-4
times more.
No one is asking you to give away your work, Walter.

<<
Let them work work it. Anyway, that person didn't wanted to buy from
me. He just wanted to teach me his way of doing business, that is
dictated by the customer, that only gives benefits to one side. He
was not even intended customer or told me that he wants to be one in
advance. Just picked on me for nothing, out of nowhere, accusing me of
bad business practice, trying to mixed me with refuse. What he knows
about the good and bad business. He came out just from the gut of the

Earth, but now I know that those agents are lurking all the time and
watch the next intended victim, slowly but surely. The good people
should be ware of these devils.
I'm doing my own way of doing business. American way of doing
business, and I will not succumb to any pressure from anybody and any
agent who goes afer the people who critize their accordions. Yes,
this
fellow is not for sale and don't need additional education from
anybody. Just leave me alone, and do not use my name, please! There is
no sense to waste my time in discussons and defending my good name.
<<
On the end I want to finish that pretending that somebody has soe
secrets in accordion repairs might work in the past. Nowadys its
gimmick that wouldn't work. The 99.9% of information has been in public

domain and nobody can do nothing about it. Period!
Again! Please don't use my name! I'm privite citizen and my name
doesn't belong to the public for the grab. Have the class!
When you keep asking so many questions about accordion work, then you
must think there are "secrets" when in actuality, there are techniques,
tools, devices, and craftsmanship involved. Public domain has nothing
to do with accordion work...... Knowledge and experience does.
Don't get upset over the use of your name. You have it so people can
respectfully adddress and recognize you. It became public when you were
born,worked, retired, as it did when you signed on the group here.

--
Stephen J. Navoyosky

***@neo.rr.com
Johann Pascher
2006-03-02 20:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Dear Stephen J. Navoyosky!

I can understand your few point as well!
But don't forget time has changed, through globalisation and neo
liberalisation!
( I don't want to start a political discussion, but I have my doubt
that, both globalisation in the present is good for all humans on this
planet and I absolutely think neo liberalisation is the wrong ideology
too).

My intention is to share all no matter what I did cost me, and no
matter what other people do with this information as long it in some
way "morally correct and the do not harm other people" . If
someone on this planet can earn some money with it, I am happy!
If it adds pleasure to anyone's live wonderful!


You are right:

"Some of us have paid dearly in time and money to learn this work
properly"

Yes so have I!

One of my profession is and was teacher, and sometimes I charge for
lectures or other work I do even today!
Still it is up to me to do some work or to offer my time to others
without charge.
The "Information" is public possession, only my time involved to
teach or to build or repair accordions or other things is in question
of getting paid for.
Then there are things I did discover my self, in this respect I am also
free to share without charging for it.
"and yet he (and you) criticize us for not broadcasting all we
know just to appease the two of you (and others) to become repairmen
for personal gain.
Please don't misunderstand, I don't criticise you or any one else
if he or you are not willing to spend your time in writing and not
getting paid for it at all!
NO! I only want to say the information or knowledge is not any ones
position, because most of it is already publicly known for a long time.
"That's immature expectations and actions."
Sorry I don't see it this way.

There is much more pleasure in giving as in taking!

So if you really know that there are better ways to do certain things,
I just apologies on you don't keep it to you and take it along to
the grave. And if someone really is close to you, and you are willing
to teach all what you know go an do it.

Best regards, johann
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-03 01:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Johann Pascher wrote:
<<
Dear Stephen J. Navoyosky!

I can understand your few point as well!
But don't forget time has changed, through globalisation and neo
liberalisation! ( I don't want to start a political discussion, but I
have my doubt that, both globalisation in the present is good for all
humans on this planet and I absolutely think neo liberalisation is the
wrong ideology too).

My intention is to share all no matter what I did cost me, and no
matter what other people do with this information as long it in some
way "morally correct and the do not harm other people" . If someone
on this planet can earn some money with it, I am happy! If it adds
pleasure to anyone's live wonderful!

You are right:

"Some of us have paid dearly in time and money to learn this work
properly"

Yes so have I!

One of my profession is and was teacher, and sometimes I charge for
lectures or other work I do even today!
Still it is up to me to do some work or to offer my time to others
without charge.
The "Information" is public possession, only my time involved to teach
or to build or repair accordions or other things is in question of
getting paid for. Then there are things I did discover my self, in this
respect I am also free to share without charging for it.
"and yet he (and you) criticize us for not broadcasting all we
know just to appease the two of you (and others) to become repairmen
for personal gain.
Please don't misunderstand, I don't criticise you or any one else if he
or you are not willing to spend your time in writing and not getting
paid for it at all! NO! I only want to say the information or knowledge
is not any ones position, because most of it is already publicly known
for a long time.
"That's immature expectations and actions."
Sorry I don't see it this way.

There is much more pleasure in giving as in taking!

So if you really know that there are better ways to do certain things,
I just apologies on you don't keep it to you and take it along to the
grave. And if someone really is close to you, and you are willing to
teach all what you know go an do it.

Best regards, johann
Johann, you commented that your profession is teaching and lecturing
and it is up to you whether to charge or not for your services. If you
truly believe that about yourself, then believe that I have that right
also. And if you understand that, then why continue to post? For you
to indicate that everything in accordion work is common knowledge is
unfounded and inaccurate. If this were so, then why do 'you' ask
questions as well as Walter and others? Many times you have wanted me
to take the time and bring forth various topics that were mentioned.
I was amused with your writing of this:
"My intention is to share all no matter what I did cost me, and no
matter what other people do with this information as long it in some
way "morally correct and the do not harm other people" . If someone
on this planet can earn some money with it, I am happy! If it adds
pleasure to anyone's live wonderful!"

Beautiful statement and very philanthropic especially when your
livelihood doesn't depend on it. Did you feel this way when you taught
and lectured for a livelihood? Of course not as you acquired your
skills through hard work, time, and money to achieve the position of
professionalism. You wanted reimbursed for it.

I've been a member of this group for a very long time and have extended
help along the way.....for free. As you stated, it was my decision and
I gave willingly. However, when certain ones, like Walter D. and you,
asked me for a deeper analysis that I did not grant, then came the
criticism.
In all those years, you'll never find where I ever asked a question on
how to do any accordion work. If that ever would have happened it would
be a clear indication that I was not who I said I was.
Johann, there must be some unknowns in everything for not all do things
the same way. There are techniques and skills and very much experienced
education's that cannot be purchased but based on education's that were
purchased. For those who expect all to be given to them free and easy,
indeed are revealing immature expectations and actions.

Steve

--
Stephen J. Navoyosky

***@neo.rr.com
Johann Pascher
2006-03-03 10:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Dear Stephen J. Navoyosky!

First of all thank you for replying!
And then, you my be right in many things in this answer and I respect
your Few point! May be the truth is a bit more complicated and some
where in between.
I am also well aware, that not all knowledge or skills are open or
reviled.
Still it is a question on how much this personal or individual
differences in doing or making things especially accordions count.
Again don't misunderstand:
I think it counts! Knowledge is not all, practicing and producing
wonderful individual instruments is what counts to me. Or put it the
other way with the open source information everyone with the needed
average skills can build a Accordion, like you get from China but to
get something special much more is needed, love, feeling, intuition,
and a lot of experience in building accordions, and beside all this
some theoretical background may help.
"then why do 'you' ask questions as well as Walter and others?"
Manly because it is a technique of keeping conversation going.
Secondary because I know I am not perfect and I still learn by
lessoning to others. And there may be more as my way of doing the work,
or it my be a better way to do things. I may have learned from others
since I am participating in this group, even I cant point it down on
one thing at the moment.
Still dos no matter, I enjoyed every line posted from you or from most
other people here. To have some one else to talk on the same
interesting things is nice to me. I do have personal friends close to
me and some at different Factory's and I think all are pleased to see
me and the do profit in some way by having one to communicate with.

I was not the one who had to seek information to be able to build
accordions, I always did my part in sharing information as long as no
one else did it before like Ike you and many others do.
I am again building a new unique accordion and it is not for sale once
it is finished. I make my own handmade reeds, for this accordion again.
Then I did restore some accordions last Year. And also some accordion
repairs. Then I did some programming for a web page, also in connection
with the diatonic accordion. Beside all this I am still involved in
building micro electronic, and doing expertises on private contracts
for other companies. And if I still find time I give lectures on
private and non private institutes. Most of it for no profit, because I
don't need the money for living. I am happy with what I did earn in
the past. Is nothing wrong with it to ask for money for the good work
one is doing.
Yes I believe this truly about myself, therefore I also believe that
you do I have that right also.
"And if you understand that, then why continue to post?"
I don't see any contradiction between posting information for free
and asking money for ones work.
May be the point is something else:

There is some intention on the net, that some people want to earn money
with selling information, even it was public domain or under public
licence in the first place.
I like to belong to a big net community who publishes under GPL
Licence. So everyone can use the information for non profit or for
profit as long as the copyright is correct.
Beautiful statement and very philanthropic especially when your
livelihood doesn't depend on it. Did you feel this way when you taught
and lectured for a livelihood?
Yes, payed gets the time involve from my side, not the information
presented. And if I don't ask now for money, see it as preset.
I am only the one who helps to find the information or to help to put
it into practice.
I gave willingly.
Like me! Great let as keep on this way!
However, when certain ones, like Walter D. and you,
asked me for a deeper analysis that I did not grant, then came the
criticism.
Was there some critic from my side?
If there was, I take this back.
It was not my intention to critic you.
It is your right to keep information to you, even if I would tell
others.
Johann, there must be some unknowns in everything for not all do things
the same way.
Yes, but many ways may lead to the same result or nearly the same
results.
There are techniques and skills and very much experienced
education's that cannot be purchased but based on education's
Yes, absolutely as I see it too!
that were purchased.
Lets say: "or given for free!"

Most of it war given to us for free to you and to me, even if we or the
government payed for education, who says all was played, all the
devotion the teacher did give to as?
May masters and teachers never did give me the impression the do it for
money, even the earned there living with it.
For those who expect all to be given to them free and easy,
indeed are revealing immature expectations and actions.
Yes this is the other side of the coin!
I don't expect anyone that he has to give his time for free!

Every worker should be played, lets say may time in reward to his.
I wish we would have a world where everyone's work is played equally!
Giving time without reward is a present, and cant be expected.

I don't find it correct that Chinese people are kept nearly as slaves
on there workplace working for much to low money, so the cant live a
decent live with all the fundamental needs solved.

I also don't think it is correct that everything has to be cheep.
Cheap means in many cases to bay expensive, because if it is really
worth more as one pays for it someone else had the loss. Or as it is in
most cases it is of very poor quality, so in the long run we all have
to pay for it. It is not in use any more, and the recourse are gone
anyway.

I am glad that here a lot of people don't think the same way, many
people know that the only can get good quality for good money. (talking
about Accordions or food, ... ). Still one has to have the money to pay
for good quality. Ebay was not any help in this respect, even I like it
for other reasons. Better would be if we still would be able to trust
shops.
In my ayes it is also a question of thinking, we shold be thinking in
not so much of getting as in giving.



This globalisation will destroy many more workplaces here in Europe and
also in USA. And the neo liberation with the completely open market
where only the price rules trade and production is sure the wrong way.
Better would be, if we in Europe and Amerika would pay good money to
the workers in this other countries.

So please Stephen let as head in the same direction even we don't
agree in every respect. So some salt in the discussion is not bad,
keeps as talking to each other. And in the end, I don't think there
is not to much difference between us both.

Best regards, Johann
s***@neo.rr.com
2006-03-03 16:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Johann,

You are a gentleman and a scholar to be sure. You've always been that
in my eyes ever since you started to post here. This particular post is
perhaps your best yet and I only say 'perhaps' because you've made many
excellent posts in the past.
I copied your message in order to respond but after reading and
studying it, I found that anything I would reply would be redundant.
Our wind has stirred the sand, and now all is at peace--meaning--we are
in agreement after diligently discussing the topic.
My best you as always, and my best to your family.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Navoyosky

***@neo.rr.com
Len Killick
2006-03-04 08:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Well said Johann! There's no answer to all of that.
TommyMemphis
2006-03-03 00:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Walter, if you post on a public forum, like it or not, it is acceptable
and well within decorum to use your name. There is nothing at all wrong
with it. I let the topic die but here YOU are resurrecting it. Since
everyone knows I am the guy who objected, you don't have to use my
name, EVERYONE knows who you are talking about. again, since YOU posted
this crap off topic, I am going to set you straight.

1) Your words on Ebay contradicted what you said here. You NEVER ONCE
explained why you contradicted yourself.

Don't blame others for reading your own words and asking you to
explain them. That mess was your doing Walter.

2) You tried to save face by accusing me of wanting you great work and
talents for free. But yet here you are not only asking for free
information, but DEMANDING that people give it to you on your terms.
Your auction was YOUR choosing, NOT mine. Whatever price an auction
brings it is the HIGHEST bid that wins it Walter. Had I won your
accordion I would have been the HIGHEST bidder.

Your incorrest accusation aside, again you prove to be a hypocrite
because it is YOU wanting an artisan to give you something he has
worked hard to learn, for FREE.

3) You claim to be an artisan and a professional yet you come to this
board asking for someone to teach you how to do something that every
bonafide accordion repair technician can do in his sleep.

Yes Walter, this is the PERFECT forum to learn from others. I have no
problem with that. HOWEVER............ how would your customers feels
in seeing you ask rudimentary questions on a message board AFTER having
sold yourself to them as an artisan and professional repairman?

This would be like me going to a recording message board and asking
someone to give me the inside secrets on recording rock-and-roll drums.

Your peccadillo is in descrining yourself as a professional repairman.
IF you had just described yourself as a lover of the accordion who
dabbles in repairs, then your questions would seem perfectly fine. But
that isn't what you did Walter. You promoted yourself as an artisan.
Sorry man, but an artisan would never go to a message board and ask how
to do something that every good repairman should know how to do.

The more you speak, the more you contradict yourself. Please walter,
don't leave the board. Just be yourself, realize that people will like
you for who you are, and quit being such a goober.
w.d.
2006-03-03 03:35:12 UTC
Permalink
"You promoted yourself as an artisan.
Sorry man, but an artisan would never go to a message board and ask how

to do something that every good repairman should know how to do.

You promoted yourself as an agent of Chinese manufacturers. Everybody
who read your plight for them can figure that out. I suspect that you
used my case to find home here to promote your cause. Soonest those
readeers figure you out the better. I was in this group from beginning
and had a good opinion.
You stick your nose everywhere uninvited. It's very popular Yiddish
proferb that says - "Spit into pigs eyes, so she would say that must be
the rain outside." Figure that out if you can.
You're just nothing more and nothing less than Big Shwantz and
Machigene Cop.
w.d.
2006-03-03 03:35:36 UTC
Permalink
"You promoted yourself as an artisan.
Sorry man, but an artisan would never go to a message board and ask how

to do something that every good repairman should know how to do.

You promoted yourself as an agent of Chinese manufacturers. Everybody
who read your plight for them can figure that out. I suspect that you
used my case to find home here to promote your cause. Soonest those
readeers figure you out the better. I was in this group from beginning
and had a good opinion.
You stick your nose everywhere uninvited. It's very popular Yiddish
proferb that says - "Spit into pigs eyes, so she would say that must be
the rain outside." Figure that out if you can.
You're just nothing more and nothing less than Big Shwantz and
Machigene Cop.
TommyMemphis
2006-03-02 23:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Johann,

I enjoyed your post and agree with you greatly. This is exactly why I
was so confident in telling Richard that buying a Chinese accordion was
by far smareter than all the goofy suggestions for him to take a stab
at a used box. For the hobbyist or beginner, these accordions are
beautiful and really a lot of fun. I wish I had something that good on
my first 12 lessons on a rented 12 bass.

The internet and advanced communications has made it possible to gather
information on any topic we want to.There will always be the need for
seasoned craftsmen, and some things are just above the
do-it-yourself-er.

In any musical venue you study, this vast information netwark has
increased competition, driven down prices and made a commodity out of
service and products that were previously considered to be special.

Low cost recording technology has crippled more than one high end
studio, Guitar Center, Musicians Friend and Ebay are killing retailers,
and things like Chinese products have had a hard impact on the Music
Retail business.

What causes people to go out of business is nto being smart enough to
adapt. Again, the golden rule of successful business is to let the
customer drive the sale. If a Chinese accordion will delight him, don't
waste his valuable life and yours trying to sell him a Dallape.

It is the hands of the master, NOT the print in his trade manuals that
holds value.
w.d.
2006-03-03 03:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Memphis is busy writing to everybody. It;s easy to figure out that
yiuact like a Chinese paid agent, who trap me to get into this group to
spread chaos and hate to anybody who is involved some way or another in
accordion repairs.
You came here too late to harass me, since I have to sell only 3-4
accordions and it will be the end of it. I can give them away an dI wil
not loose anything. I give them out frofree but not to Shwantzes and on
the top of it Mechiegene Cops. You're too easy to figure out. Soon even
Chinese kick you out because you're the Shwantz and Mechingene Cop and
have wrong approach to everything - YOU JUST A BIG BUM!
Ike
2006-03-04 16:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johann Pascher
Hi, Walter!
The main problem is the health problem working with acetone solutions.
Still it is difficult to explain how to do it, better would be to show
it and work on it together with an experienced person. The explanation
is not completely wrong that Rachid did give.
There is no need to learn to work with celluloid on new Boxes because
it is banned to be produced in Europe any more and the cases are now
covered a different way in mot cases. All the celluloid are old store
material some still comes from Italy. There are no secrets with working
with celluloid at all.
The solution and the time the celluloid is kept in this water acetone
solution is right, if the celluloid is just in the right softness to
pull it over round parts, it should be stretchable to some extend and
sticky enough to glue to the case. The body of the case has to be in a
very nice finish before applying it. Metal scrapers like a knife plaid
or a big raiser blade is used to scrape the surface all even. After a
relative long time of hardening period (all acetone must be gone again)
all is polished very carefully. This is all still not the complete
explanation, but just do your experiments and if you get in trouble you
my contact me in a private mail.
I don't ask for any money as other people do, I am just happy if
some old instrument can be restored in a decent way. There are absolute
no "secrets" all is written down in school books, and there are many
people around here who know how to do it the proper way. Or if you
would have time, you even could do it your self at one of the German
(Austrian) Factories to learn it the right way. And I don't think the
ask for money to show it all to you. Also keep in mind, all the
knowledge of making Accordions in China is exported by Hohner and
German trained Accordion builder. Just a few weeks ago one of this
trainers who travels to China very frequently did make his "master"
exam in building Accordions in Germany. Hohner employs German skilled
accordion builders that are in charge of getting the Chinese production
more and more to a higher standard. There would be more to this subject
too, but I mention it now because if we think there are still "secrets"
we are wrong all is already soled to China, and way should not the rest
of the world also know all the want to know to do the same work?
Best regards, Johann
You are right that there are really no secrets any more. the problem is how
to explain it to someone who doesn't know the right questions to ask. there
were once secrets, like how to make porcelain. it was learned in Russia from
an alcoholic German who learned it in China, if the legend is to believed.
The Russians chained him to the wall and would not give him anuy liquor
until he "spilled the beans".
p***@gmail.com
2016-09-18 20:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi there I have an accordion to restore, can you given me your contact, I need to speak with you thanks..
p***@gmail.com
2016-03-10 09:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by w.d.
Hi Everybody,
I have been busy with rebuilding accordions since before the eBay
started. Sometimes, I need to do nice work with celluloid, but avoid
that at all costs and manage to do half way or without it. I wonder if
anyone here in this group was successful with covering big areas on
accordion with new or used celluloid, and also made new halftone keys
with celluloid too. Is there a few tricks to that work that have to be
learned? Could anyone share his successful experience with the
celluloid.
1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
4. Do you use any special glue?
5. How many big area and repairs did you do successfully?
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?
My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!
Please, just don't say I'm doing those things a certain way and leave
questions unanswered.
Sincerely,
W.D.
I'm sorry to unearth such an old thread but I'm desperately looking for a company to supply me with celluloid whithout having to buy a hundred pounds of it. Im restoring old banjolines and am in need of small quantities of celluloid and the only supplier I found is in china and does only wolesale.If someones finds my message in a bottle and knows of a supplier, please feel free to tell me..
Thnaks in advance,
Cheers,
Philip.
Ike Milligan
2016-03-11 06:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by w.d.
Hi Everybody,
I have been busy with rebuilding accordions since before the eBay
started. Sometimes, I need to do nice work with celluloid, but avoid
that at all costs and manage to do half way or without it. I wonder if
anyone here in this group was successful with covering big areas on
accordion with new or used celluloid, and also made new halftone keys
with celluloid too. Is there a few tricks to that work that have to be
learned? Could anyone share his successful experience with the
celluloid.
1. Do you use acetone in full strenght?
2. Do you warm up the acetone and thin out with water?
3. What percentage of water do you add to the industrial acetone?
4. Do you use any special glue?
5. How many big area and repairs did you do successfully?
6. How do you keep new and wet sheet of celluloid nice and flat on the
accordion body?
7. How do you smooth out and polish new celluloid at the end of the
job?
My recommendation - use surgical gloves if you work with acetone and
celluloid!
Please, just don't say I'm doing those things a certain way and leave
questions unanswered.
Sincerely,
W.D.
I'm sorry to unearth such an old thread but I'm desperately looking for a company to supply me with celluloid whithout having to buy a hundred pounds of it. Im restoring old banjolines and am in need of small quantities of celluloid and the only supplier I found is in china and does only wolesale.If someones finds my message in a bottle and knows of a supplier, please feel free to tell me..
Thnaks in advance,
Cheers,
Philip.
Frank Romano at accordiondepot.com can get celluloid, and "How to Buikd
an Accordion" describes some work with it. I might have the only digital
copy of that book in existence, and I was selling it online printed from
my HD for $20. I think Frank said to dilute the acetone 50-50 with
water, but you might need to experiment.
I think maybe you can use shellac thinner, i.e. alcohol.
To motivate anyone to import the celluloid you need, you need to know
how much you want and possibly pay up front.
I would not buy anything related to accordions in China. you can get
celluloid from Italy, and Frank could get it for you, but you have to be
serious and know how much and what colors you need. There is an online
color chart.
Don't waste anyone's time.
Loading...