Orla and Petosa Reedless Accordions

[chuckmac78]

I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.

I am looking at a Mint-Mint (according to the seller) Petosa
Millennium. I know they are supposed to be very good. This one is
supposed to be a year to a year and a half old. Do any of you folks
have any comments from experience with the Petosa and this spring
problem (if it exists). Also are their any other negatives to look
out for in the Petosa or any other Reedless for that matter. I
have.......done a lot of homework so there is no need to go to great
lengths explaining everything about a Reedless accordions. On the
other hand I am open to hear anything that might keep me out of
trouble.

Another question for a Orlavox Quartet owner or someone who would
know. I haven't been able to get much as far as a review about the
Orla. In the only review I could find, the reviewer doesn't give them
very good marks. Anyone have much on hands experience with one.

One last thing I'm wondering about. I've thought about buying a
Titano Master which has limited sound voices. I was wondering sense
it does have a midi out if I could operate all the functions
available on an Orla xm200 or xm800 sound modules. I have been told I
could use it for a controler with limited capabilities. I don't mind
doing the work at the module itself, as long as it could be done.

I just picked up a Roland sc-155 sound canvas on e-bay and I thought
I might be able to get some limited milage out of it using a Reedless
Midi Accordion as a controller. (If I ever find the one I want)

Thanks in advance for all the help

Chuck McClain

[~Dream~]

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.

Contact springs are a tried and true method of switching.
They are very reliable, require little maintenence, are easy
to repair when necessary, are very forgiving mechanically,
and have stood the test of time in hundreds of thousands
of devices played countless millions of hours by professionals
the world over.

The springs are typically soldered on one end, so it is
nearly impossible for them to "come loose"

The great weakness of metal to metal contact switching
became more apparent as we moved into the digital age...
there is actually what we call a "Bounce" in the electrical
signature due to the contact surfaces imperfections
and sliding at the point of contact as the key moves.

More modern types of switching systems oversome this
problem. Newer switching systems also have a better
potential for alignment, and greater ability to hold
that alignment once set-up.

Modern switching systems have their own problem areas
and limitations. Systems based on light sensitive
transistors are very slick... using the flatted shaft of
the treble arms to block or allow light to pass to the
sensors. There is a long term concern over the light
sources losing intensity or quality. There have been
reports of false triggering under strong or unusual
ambient light conditions. These systems use more energy.

FET transistor switching seems to be emerging as the most
popular currently with Accordion. Also completely solid
state, the transistor is switched by it's proximity to
a magnet. Degradation is not a factor, but the integrity of
the glue bond holding the magnets in place has been an issue
and occasionally a catastrophe. This depends on the
technician (retrofit) or factory skill level to get a
good, reliable system.

Encapsulated reeds (usually in glass) are a compromise...
less expensive (they need no bias) but also using magnets
to switch. The bounce is minimal as the reed is in a vacuum.

The soft rubberlike pistons contacting carbon traces
on circuit boards used in nearly all flat keyboard devices
has not been ported to the Accordion, and is unlikely
to be done.

The most significant improvement to an Accordion MIDI
switching system is found with manufacturers who design
the mechanical underpinnings for switching INTO the action
mechanism from the initial stages of development. These
are the most likely to survive the longest - resisting
abuse and accident.

For examples, I can offer up both a 50 year old Cordovox
(still working... switches are just fine) and my first
Excelsior MIDIvox (same type switches as the C-vox) at
about 12 years old now and never a problem. Not that I
wasn't ready for anything... have a jar of brand new
replacement springs for the C-vox I've never needed.

Let's see... the MOOG is springs too (configured as a
variable resistor actually)

Ciao Ventura

[Dennis Gurwell]

I bought an Orlavox reedless this past summer. The accordion sounds are
really great, but the non-accordion sounds are really lacking on many
levels. All the sounds have very wet reverb burnt into the sample chips.
There is no way to get rid of it. The Orlavox allows layering of only two
channels, whereas; I believe that the Petosa allows layering of 16 channels.

The biggest problem I find with the Orlavox is that the bellows sensitivity
isn't as sensitive as I would like it. I play in a Zydeco band that plays
with a lot of dynamics. The dynamic range of the bellows on the Orlavox
isn't even close to that of my regular piano or button accordions. I have
been tempted to even take a volume pedal on the gig so that I can play with
more dynamics.

Post by ~Dream~

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.

Contact springs are a tried and true method of switching.
They are very reliable, require little maintenence, are easy
to repair when necessary, are very forgiving mechanically,
and have stood the test of time in hundreds of thousands
of devices played countless millions of hours by professionals
the world over.
The springs are typically soldered on one end, so it is
nearly impossible for them to "come loose"
The great weakness of metal to metal contact switching
became more apparent as we moved into the digital age...
there is actually what we call a "Bounce" in the electrical
signature due to the contact surfaces imperfections
and sliding at the point of contact as the key moves.
More modern types of switching systems oversome this
problem. Newer switching systems also have a better
potential for alignment, and greater ability to hold
that alignment once set-up.
Modern switching systems have their own problem areas
and limitations. Systems based on light sensitive
transistors are very slick... using the flatted shaft of
the treble arms to block or allow light to pass to the
sensors. There is a long term concern over the light
sources losing intensity or quality. There have been
reports of false triggering under strong or unusual
ambient light conditions. These systems use more energy.
FET transistor switching seems to be emerging as the most
popular currently with Accordion. Also completely solid
state, the transistor is switched by it's proximity to
a magnet. Degradation is not a factor, but the integrity of
the glue bond holding the magnets in place has been an issue
and occasionally a catastrophe. This depends on the
technician (retrofit) or factory skill level to get a
good, reliable system.
Encapsulated reeds (usually in glass) are a compromise...
less expensive (they need no bias) but also using magnets
to switch. The bounce is minimal as the reed is in a vacuum.
The soft rubberlike pistons contacting carbon traces
on circuit boards used in nearly all flat keyboard devices
has not been ported to the Accordion, and is unlikely
to be done.
The most significant improvement to an Accordion MIDI
switching system is found with manufacturers who design
the mechanical underpinnings for switching INTO the action
mechanism from the initial stages of development. These
are the most likely to survive the longest - resisting
abuse and accident.
For examples, I can offer up both a 50 year old Cordovox
(still working... switches are just fine) and my first
Excelsior MIDIvox (same type switches as the C-vox) at
about 12 years old now and never a problem. Not that I
wasn't ready for anything... have a jar of brand new
replacement springs for the C-vox I've never needed.
Let's see... the MOOG is springs too (configured as a
variable resistor actually)
Ciao Ventura

[W.D.]

Post by ~Dream~

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.

Contact springs are a tried and true method of switching.
They are very reliable, require little maintenence, are easy
to repair when necessary, are very forgiving mechanically,
and have stood the test of time in hundreds of thousands
of devices played countless millions of hours by professionals
the world over.
The springs are typically soldered on one end, so it is
nearly impossible for them to "come loose"
The great weakness of metal to metal contact switching
became more apparent as we moved into the digital age...
there is actually what we call a "Bounce" in the electrical
signature due to the contact surfaces imperfections
and sliding at the point of contact as the key moves.
More modern types of switching systems oversome this
problem. Newer switching systems also have a better
potential for alignment, and greater ability to hold
that alignment once set-up.
Modern switching systems have their own problem areas
and limitations. Systems based on light sensitive
transistors are very slick... using the flatted shaft of
the treble arms to block or allow light to pass to the
sensors. There is a long term concern over the light
sources losing intensity or quality. There have been
reports of false triggering under strong or unusual
ambient light conditions. These systems use more energy.
FET transistor switching seems to be emerging as the most
popular currently with Accordion. Also completely solid
state, the transistor is switched by it's proximity to
a magnet. Degradation is not a factor, but the integrity of
the glue bond holding the magnets in place has been an issue
and occasionally a catastrophe. This depends on the
technician (retrofit) or factory skill level to get a
good, reliable system.
Encapsulated reeds (usually in glass) are a compromise...
less expensive (they need no bias) but also using magnets
to switch. The bounce is minimal as the reed is in a vacuum.
The soft rubberlike pistons contacting carbon traces
on circuit boards used in nearly all flat keyboard devices
has not been ported to the Accordion, and is unlikely
to be done.
The most significant improvement to an Accordion MIDI
switching system is found with manufacturers who design
the mechanical underpinnings for switching INTO the action
mechanism from the initial stages of development. These
are the most likely to survive the longest - resisting
abuse and accident.
For examples, I can offer up both a 50 year old Cordovox
(still working... switches are just fine) and my first
Excelsior MIDIvox (same type switches as the C-vox) at
about 12 years old now and never a problem. Not that I
wasn't ready for anything... have a jar of brand new
replacement springs for the C-vox I've never needed.
Let's see... the MOOG is springs too (configured as a
variable resistor actually)
Ciao Ventura

Very nice report Ventura. You have been around and know many MIDI
accordions with old switching system and the new. I agree with you
100%. I would like to add a few comments of my own. I would take
anytime the silver coated spring switches than those with magnetic
operating support; that means hall effect and glass capsules.

The only problem I encountered, is the lock of guitar like string wire
Nr. 26 or Nr. 25 as I remember the tickness needed, that is silver
coated for supper conductivity.

Those so called "famous" new switches that operate like diodes but
actually are not diodes at all, they have tiny micro contacts inside
with minute springs that react to magnets. If the player consider
millions contacts as most people do playing their accordions, it
ramains to be seen if those switches overlast silver coated spring
switches as employed in Cordovox or other MIDIs with electronic
contact switches.

It would be nice to hear reports how many of these systems failed
already and the players needed to replace hall-effect or glass
capsules enclosed switches.
Either way some soldering is necessary. In contact spring switches is
actully lot less soldering than when micro magnetic switches are being
used. In addition as you said there are some problems with a glue to
enforce those minute magnets, however, there are circular magnets
with the tiny hole inside that use brass screws instead of glue.

Long time ago, the problem of backlash was eliminated in some organ's
MIDI that were using gold coated springs and hard carbon thin wire to
pass one way DC current. It is even harder to get that kind of carbon
wire and the thin gold coated contact springs.

Right now, it is much simpler to get replacement for micro swithes;
hall effect, and so on. Even those switches might cost from $3 a piece
to $6-$8 as I have seen in catalogues. I wonder what is the extend of
quality of micro switches being used in MIDI accordions made in
factories? I'm sure they're saving on costs as much as possible!

Enjoy it,
W.D.

[~Dream~]

Hi Walter,

Post by W.D.
Either way some soldering is necessary. In contact spring switches is
actully lot less soldering than when micro magnetic switches are being
used.

though the first time I went to solder one of those springs
got it too hot and the solder wicked right up the spiral...
killed a few before I got the hang of it!

Post by W.D.
In addition as you said there are some problems with a glue to
enforce those minute magnets, however, there are circular magnets
with the tiny hole inside that use brass screws instead of glue.
Right now, it is much simpler to get replacement for micro swithes;
hall effect, and so on. Even those switches might cost from $3 a piece
to $6-$8 as I have seen in catalogues. I wonder what is the extend of
quality of micro switches being used in MIDI accordions made in
factories? I'm sure they're saving on costs as much as possible!

and the other problem is because our industry is so small,
whan a builder doesn't use the "most common" parts available
we invariably get in a jam a few years later when the OEM parts
used are no longer available for love or money.
I recall Craig Anderton's excellent book of electronics projects
for Musicians - by the time it got published - the transistor
he used and apecified most often was history and the opto-coupler
had actually been out of production for ages (he was using
old, new stock and didn't realise it I guess)

The one thing that I am stuck on in this thread,
however, is the fact that just between Bruce and Castiglione,
they have had 5 used less than 2 year old Petosa
Reedless accordions come to them recently.

Even if we are generous and allow Petosa sells 50 pro
level accordions per year, and are further generous enough
to posit that 10% of their sales are in Reedless, then that
means that 50% of the retail customers of reedless Petosa
accordions ( who have paid from $6000 to $8000 ) are so unhappy
with them that they are willing to take a $3000 or $4000 loss
within a year just to get rid of them?

Good Grief!?! I know Sullivan likes his, so I assumed
they are decent devices, but these numbers are appalling,
and if this is their trend, then how many other retailers
have taken Petosa Reedless accordions in on trade too?
How few people actually keep them? 20% 30%?

Then I think of the people I know who have used technology
by MASTER, and over the years continue to get their
newer products because the older models were good
and reliable - while you could always count on them to
improve things each go-round. Carl is a case in
point... he liked his first Master Reedless so well
he bought the new model through Titano... and he's keeping
both (and incidentally, I'll bet he paid less to own
both of them than any of those folks who took a bath
trading in their Petosa and Orla reedless paid for theirs.

And for Dennis, the bellows sensitivity problems on the
ORLA's were discussed a few times in the newsgroup...

people!!! you should be using our Archives at Google
before you blow $4 or $5 Grand on something.

Ciao Ventura

[Carl Peterson]

Post by ~Dream~
Hi Walter,

Post by W.D.
Either way some soldering is necessary. In contact spring switches is
actully lot less soldering than when micro magnetic switches are
being used.

though the first time I went to solder one of those springs
got it too hot and the solder wicked right up the spiral...
killed a few before I got the hang of it!

Post by W.D.
In addition as you said there are some problems with a glue to
enforce those minute magnets, however, there are circular magnets
with the tiny hole inside that use brass screws instead of glue.
Right now, it is much simpler to get replacement for micro swithes;
hall effect, and so on. Even those switches might cost from $3 a
piece to $6-$8 as I have seen in catalogues. I wonder what is the
extend of quality of micro switches being used in MIDI accordions
made in factories? I'm sure they're saving on costs as much as
possible!

and the other problem is because our industry is so small,
whan a builder doesn't use the "most common" parts available
we invariably get in a jam a few years later when the OEM parts
used are no longer available for love or money.
I recall Craig Anderton's excellent book of electronics projects
for Musicians - by the time it got published - the transistor
he used and apecified most often was history and the opto-coupler
had actually been out of production for ages (he was using
old, new stock and didn't realise it I guess)
The one thing that I am stuck on in this thread,
however, is the fact that just between Bruce and Castiglione,
they have had 5 used less than 2 year old Petosa
Reedless accordions come to them recently.
Even if we are generous and allow Petosa sells 50 pro
level accordions per year, and are further generous enough
to posit that 10% of their sales are in Reedless, then that
means that 50% of the retail customers of reedless Petosa
accordions ( who have paid from $6000 to $8000 ) are so unhappy
with them that they are willing to take a $3000 or $4000 loss
within a year just to get rid of them?
Good Grief!?! I know Sullivan likes his, so I assumed
they are decent devices, but these numbers are appalling,
and if this is their trend, then how many other retailers
have taken Petosa Reedless accordions in on trade too?
How few people actually keep them? 20% 30%?
Then I think of the people I know who have used technology
by MASTER, and over the years continue to get their
newer products because the older models were good
and reliable - while you could always count on them to
improve things each go-round. Carl is a case in
point... he liked his first Master Reedless so well
he bought the new model through Titano... and he's keeping
both (and incidentally, I'll bet he paid less to own
both of them than any of those folks who took a bath
trading in their Petosa and Orla reedless paid for theirs.

How true! I even got a trip to Italy and still didn't pay as much. AND I
think both accordions are just great, YET!!

Carl

Post by ~Dream~
And for Dennis, the bellows sensitivity problems on the
ORLA's were discussed a few times in the newsgroup...
people!!! you should be using our Archives at Google
before you blow $4 or $5 Grand on something.
Ciao Ventura

[~Dream~]

Post by ~Dream~
The one thing that I am stuck on in this thread,
however, is the fact that just between Bruce and Castiglione,
they have had 5 used less than 2 year old Petosa
Reedless accordions come to them recently.

and I see another Petosa reedless for sale, posted in the
http://www.washingtonaccordions.org
classified section -

What is wrong with these Petosa'a that, apparently,
the majority of people who buy them turn right around
and sell them again?

This is appalling

Post by ~Dream~
Even if we are generous and allow Petosa sells 50 pro
level accordions per year, and are further generous enough
to posit that 10% of their sales are in Reedless, then that
means that 50% of the retail customers of reedless Petosa
accordions ( who have paid from $6000 to $8000 ) are so unhappy
with them that they are willing to take a $3000 or $4000 loss
within a year just to get rid of them?
Good Grief!?!

Ciao Ventura

[Bruce Metras]

Hello Ventura!!

Yes, lots of Reedless accordions are for sale....the Petosa is a very good,
well built reedless...and Petosa has a loyal following in the US....soooo,
many new ones are/were sold....other makes, Titano, Orla, Master,Iorio all
have a reedless to compete favorably with Petosa's higher prices (and
subsquent clientele)....

I don't think the problem is with Petosa specifically, but with the
"reedless" experience in general....I know all the great reasons why people
buy and use them, but I can clearly see why someone might want to part with
their reedless accordion, amplifier, cords, sound module, wireless
transmitter, headphones, etc. in order to trade for a nice, lightweight,
high quality reeded instrument to play or practice with..... personally, I
feel much too detached from the music when I play a reedless, you cannot
shape the tones or feel the vibrations under your fingers or through your
being.....

btw.....I know of two more for sale...:-))

best,
Bruce

From: ~Dream~

Post by ~Dream~
The one thing that I am stuck on in this thread,
however, is the fact that just between Bruce and Castiglione,
they have had 5 used less than 2 year old Petosa
Reedless accordions come to them recently.

and I see another Petosa reedless for sale, posted in the
http://www.washingtonaccordions.org
classified section -
What is wrong with these Petosa'a that, apparently,
the majority of people who buy them turn right around
and sell them again?
This is appalling

Post by ~Dream~
Even if we are generous and allow Petosa sells 50 pro
level accordions per year, and are further generous enough
to posit that 10% of their sales are in Reedless, then that
means that 50% of the retail customers of reedless Petosa
accordions ( who have paid from $6000 to $8000 ) are so unhappy
with them that they are willing to take a $3000 or $4000 loss
within a year just to get rid of them?
Good Grief!?!

Ciao Ventura

[Carl]

Bruce Metras wrote:
personally, I feel much too detached from the

music when I play a reedless, you cannot shape the tones or feel the
vibrations under your fingers or through your being.....

I guess, being a swede I don't notice this. Reedless is the best thing that
ever happened to me. And I have A Titano and also MasterSound midi
accordion. I also didn't notice any "vibrations" when I was playing my
Diamond accordion.. numb I guess.

Carl

[Bruce Metras]

From: "Carl"
I guess, being a swede I don't notice this. Reedless is the best thing that
ever happened to me. And I have A Titano and also MasterSound midi
accordion. I also didn't notice any "vibrations" when I was playing my
Diamond accordion.. numb I guess.
Carl

Well, there you go!....I'm 50/50, Italian and French...

Bruce

[Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)]

Is this really very different from the folks who buy new cars, use 'em
for a year or two, then dump 'em again? Some people do have enough money
to do the pay-to-try-it routine.

I'd want to see *real* numbers before I granted that 50% conjecture. I'd
also want to check how many of those being resold were really purchased
new; if they bought it used at $4K then selling it more-used at $3K
isn't so bad a hit.

[~Dream~]

Hi Joe,

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Is this really very different from the folks who buy new cars, use 'em
for a year or two, then dump 'em again?

yes, I think so. While there are some overly moneyed people
buying accordions on a whim or to have the latest thing, I feel
most people are making a very serious decision... for many once
in a lifetime... and they commit to a brand and model quite
deeply. In a time frame of "Accordion years" it is almost
absurd to think someone who has committed to a brand new
top of the line accordion (presumably because they thought
it was the best accordion on earth) would spend less than
2 years merely getting to know the thing! much less becoming
so disenchanted they'd actually dump it.

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
I'd want to see *real* numbers before I granted that 50% conjecture.

It is nearly impossible to get accurate data on
small music companies outside the mainstream... however

we know that the entire industry doesn't quite achieve
2000 units of full size accordions per annum... worldwide
outside of China...

we know that Petosa sells few MIDI accordions of any type
unbundled (module... eon system) so even though they cost
a tiny bit less than their acoustic models, their average
sales ticket is still well over 10 grand. Petosa didn't
make the cut of top 500 USA music retailers, so I really
don't think they are close to grossing a Million a year.

Even if you allow 20% of their sales as MIDI, and 25%
of that as reedless, I still say we are seeing over
50% of their annual sales in reedless being dumped
back on the market almost immediately...
something is very, very wrong with that.

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
also want to check how many of those being resold were really purchased
new;

I'm referring to ones returning to the market within 450 days
of first being titled...
$8000 accordions just don't turn around that fast to imagine
any of these are re-re-sales.

Plus, this last year has seen some serious price decreases
by other brands, and MASTER products are easily available
both in Canada and the USA around the $3000 price point new,
making it really difficult for anyone re-selling a Petosa
to compete (the re-seller doesn't have the nickel tour,
the warranty, etc. to add value to the sale - and it's
hard to be honestly enthusiastic about something
you are trying to get rid of)

no - there is some serious flaw in the implementation
or something on these Petosa reedless that nearly half
the true believers who buy them just can't get over...
and clearly Petosa has little interest in doing anything
to reverse the trend. (or they would be pulling them back
from the disenchanted and re-selling them themselves
to keep it quiet...)

Ciao Ventura

[Dennis Gurwell]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Accordioner]

if possible, try a cavagnolo odyssee !! www.cavagnolo.com

Post by Dennis Gurwell
I have been using my Orla in a Zydeco group for about 2 1/2 months. It does
take some getting used to. I love the fact that I can crank up the volume
to match the elecrtic guitar, bass, and drums, without creating feedback,
and without having to pull and squeeze so hard that I might have a heart
attack. The accordion samples are very good, and most of the dancers (who
fancy themselves as Zydeco purists) don't even seem to notice that I'm using
electronics to get that sound. However, the first few times I used it were
very weird. I was used to hearing sound from the box itself with my old
Colombo. With the Orla, the sound only comes from the monitors and PA
speakers. That took some getting used to. I now use a small amp on stage
in addition to plugging into the PA system. That way I can control my own
near-proximity stage volume without messing up the PA and monitor mixes.

Post by ~Dream~
Hi Joe,

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Is this really very different from the folks who buy new cars, use 'em
for a year or two, then dump 'em again?

yes, I think so. While there are some overly moneyed people
buying accordions on a whim or to have the latest thing, I feel
most people are making a very serious decision... for many once
in a lifetime... and they commit to a brand and model quite
deeply. In a time frame of "Accordion years" it is almost
absurd to think someone who has committed to a brand new
top of the line accordion (presumably because they thought
it was the best accordion on earth) would spend less than
2 years merely getting to know the thing! much less becoming
so disenchanted they'd actually dump it.

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
I'd want to see *real* numbers before I granted that 50% conjecture.

It is nearly impossible to get accurate data on
small music companies outside the mainstream... however
we know that the entire industry doesn't quite achieve
2000 units of full size accordions per annum... worldwide
outside of China...
we know that Petosa sells few MIDI accordions of any type
unbundled (module... eon system) so even though they cost
a tiny bit less than their acoustic models, their average
sales ticket is still well over 10 grand. Petosa didn't
make the cut of top 500 USA music retailers, so I really
don't think they are close to grossing a Million a year.
Even if you allow 20% of their sales as MIDI, and 25%
of that as reedless, I still say we are seeing over
50% of their annual sales in reedless being dumped
back on the market almost immediately...
something is very, very wrong with that.

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
also want to check how many of those being resold were really purchased
new;

I'm referring to ones returning to the market within 450 days
of first being titled...
$8000 accordions just don't turn around that fast to imagine
any of these are re-re-sales.
Plus, this last year has seen some serious price decreases
by other brands, and MASTER products are easily available
both in Canada and the USA around the $3000 price point new,
making it really difficult for anyone re-selling a Petosa
to compete (the re-seller doesn't have the nickel tour,
the warranty, etc. to add value to the sale - and it's
hard to be honestly enthusiastic about something
you are trying to get rid of)
no - there is some serious flaw in the implementation
or something on these Petosa reedless that nearly half
the true believers who buy them just can't get over...
and clearly Petosa has little interest in doing anything
to reverse the trend. (or they would be pulling them back
from the disenchanted and re-selling them themselves
to keep it quiet...)
Ciao Ventura

[Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)]

Post by Dennis Gurwell
very weird. I was used to hearing sound from the box itself with my old
Colombo. With the Orla, the sound only comes from the monitors and PA
speakers. That took some getting used to. I now use a small amp on stage
in addition to plugging into the PA system. That way I can control my own
near-proximity stage volume without messing up the PA and monitor mixes.

Most folks never realize how much difference decent stage monitors make
until they have to play in a hall that doesn't have them. If the folks
running the board can't promise you a decent monitor, setting up your
own is a reasonable alternative. (The little "hotspot" amplified
speakers are less visually distracting than a cabinet, for what it's
worth.)

One request, speaking as a sound tech: Please try to keep it pointed
*back* into the stage (or, better, back and outward into the wings)
rather than out at the audience, since otherwise we have to fight with
it when trying to set up the room mix. I kept having that battle with
electic guitarists/bassists, who like putting their rack at the back of
the stage...

[Dennis Gurwell]

For one of my gigs I use a hotspot pointed at my left ear. The sound guy
only has one monitor in front and one in back for the drummer. That single
monitor in front doesn't provide enough coverage for me to hear myself. He
doesn't use more monitors because they reflect too much off the wall behind
us creating more stage volume. The hotspot helps a lot.

Post by Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)

Post by Dennis Gurwell
very weird. I was used to hearing sound from the box itself with my old
Colombo. With the Orla, the sound only comes from the monitors and PA
speakers. That took some getting used to. I now use a small amp on stage
in addition to plugging into the PA system. That way I can control my own
near-proximity stage volume without messing up the PA and monitor mixes.

Most folks never realize how much difference decent stage monitors make
until they have to play in a hall that doesn't have them. If the folks
running the board can't promise you a decent monitor, setting up your
own is a reasonable alternative. (The little "hotspot" amplified
speakers are less visually distracting than a cabinet, for what it's
worth.)
One request, speaking as a sound tech: Please try to keep it pointed
*back* into the stage (or, better, back and outward into the wings)
rather than out at the audience, since otherwise we have to fight with
it when trying to set up the room mix. I kept having that battle with
electic guitarists/bassists, who like putting their rack at the back of
the stage...
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign | "may'ron DaroQbe'chugh vaj bIrIQbej" --
/\ Stamp out HTML mail! | "Put down the squeezebox & nobody gets hurt."

[Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)]

Good point. Hotspots, because they're closer to the performer than floor
monitors, can be run at lower volume which reduces some feedback/echoing
problems.

Headset monitors take that one stage further, of course, which is
another reason some singers are moving to headset mike/earphone setups.

[Gary Dahl]

I recorded on the reedless Cavagnolo for the French Tango Book CD. I
thought it duplicated the acoustic characteristics closely enough for
the mission. One advantage for the tango interpretation is the deep,
aggressive bass. I tried a 2002 reedless Petosa recently and found it a
joy to play!

gd

website #1
http://www.accordions.com/garydahl

website #2
http://www.petosa.com/dahl
http://www.petosa.com/dahl/sheetmusic.html

[John`s]

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.
I am looking at a Mint-Mint (according to the seller) Petosa
Millennium. I know they are supposed to be very good. This one is
supposed to be a year to a year and a half old. Do any of you folks
have any comments from experience with the Petosa and this spring
problem (if it exists). Also are their any other negatives to look
out for in the Petosa or any other Reedless for that matter. I
have.......done a lot of homework so there is no need to go to great
lengths explaining everything about a Reedless accordions. On the
other hand I am open to hear anything that might keep me out of
trouble.
Another question for a Orlavox Quartet owner or someone who would
know. I haven't been able to get much as far as a review about the
Orla. In the only review I could find, the reviewer doesn't give them
very good marks. Anyone have much on hands experience with one.
One last thing I'm wondering about. I've thought about buying a
Titano Master which has limited sound voices. I was wondering sense
it does have a midi out if I could operate all the functions
available on an Orla xm200 or xm800 sound modules. I have been told I
could use it for a controler with limited capabilities. I don't mind
doing the work at the module itself, as long as it could be done.
I just picked up a Roland sc-155 sound canvas on e-bay and I thought
I might be able to get some limited milage out of it using a Reedless
Midi Accordion as a controller. (If I ever find the one I want)
Thanks in advance for all the help
Chuck McClain

Why don`t you retrofit MIDI into an existing acoustic accordion
and use it as a controller for your Orla 800 or Sc 155 sound modules or any
other module that you want to use.

Just to buy an reedless accordion to use it as a MIDI controller does not
make any sense to me ( with all do respect).

Any MIDI with spring contact will always produce some problems.
Solid state with magnets are practically "problem proof"

I am installing a couple of different MIDI systems with a new technology
and repaired many MIDI with spring contacts.

Personally, I would newer buy an accordion that have a spring contact
system.


John
http://www.johnsaccordionservice.com/

[Bruce Metras]

Hello Chuck,

I have a brand new Orlavox Quartet here for $3200 as well as a
perfect, as new, few month old Millenium for $3800 (took in trade
on an acoustic)....They are comparable....The Petosa feels like a
higher quality piece, the Orla programming is probably a bit
easier at first and is done exclusively on the grill...The people
around here who play the Millenium love them....I'm still getting
familiar with the Orlavox and have yet to play it out in public....if
I were to choose at under $4k, (for professional use),I'd go with
the Petosa...As I mainly use a reedless to play through
headphones for quiet practice the Orlavox would fit the bill just
fine.....both play like a reeded accordion with good keyboards,
bass machines and bellow dynamics....the Orla uses an
adjustable air bleed and two switchable electronic sensitivity
levels....the air bleed is just that and is not influenced by keys or
buttons....you can play it with a minimum of bellows travel if you
like and still get the dynamic range available..

Bruce Metras

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have

a

Post by chuckmac78
history of becoming loose.

[Dennis Gurwell]

Hi Bruce,

Post by Bruce Metras

Post by Bruce Metras
I were to choose at under $4k, (for professional use),I'd go with

the Petosa...

But the Petosa sells new for about $6,000.

Post by Bruce Metras
headphones for quiet practice the Orlavox would fit the bill just
fine.....both play like a reeded accordion with good keyboards,
bass machines and bellow dynamics....

I don't know about the Petosa as I've never played one, but I have to
disagree with you on the Orlavox. In a high-volume situation like a Zydeco
band with amplified bass and guitar and drums, I've found the Orlavox to not
have anywhere near the bellows dynamic response that I would like. It's
either too loud or too soft. As I said before, I'm really considering using
a volume pedal on stage.

Dennis

[Bruce Metras]

Hi Dennis!

From: "Dennis Gurwell"
Hi Bruce,

Post by Bruce Metras

Post by Bruce Metras
I were to choose at under $4k, (for professional use),I'd go with

the Petosa...

But the Petosa sells new for about $6,000.

I was referring to the two Milleniums I have here at the shop.....one only a
few months old at $3800 and one going on two years old at $3000.....

Our uses are quite different with the Orla, but you are correct in that the
bellow dynamics range is not near as good as a reeded accordion.....I hope I
didn't give that impression, it's certainly acceptable through headphones,
but apparently not in your use....:-).......not hearing for myself what
you're up against, a volume pedal might be a great idea!!

I haven't been playing the reedless much through large amps, however, I
probably should, just to get a feel for what you're commenting on....thanks
for the input!

Bruce

Post by Bruce Metras
headphones for quiet practice the Orlavox would fit the bill just
fine.....both play like a reeded accordion with good keyboards,
bass machines and bellow dynamics....

I don't know about the Petosa as I've never played one, but I have to
disagree with you on the Orlavox. In a high-volume situation like a Zydeco
band with amplified bass and guitar and drums, I've found the Orlavox to not
have anywhere near the bellows dynamic response that I would like. It's
either too loud or too soft. As I said before, I'm really considering using
a volume pedal on stage.
Dennis

[Accordioner]

try the reedles from cavagnolo, verry good dynamic on the bellow and verry
realistic sounds
type:cavagnolo odyssee www.cavagnolo.com

have a nice day

Accordioner

Post by Bruce Metras
Hi Dennis!

From: "Dennis Gurwell"
Hi Bruce,

Post by Bruce Metras

Post by Bruce Metras
I were to choose at under $4k, (for professional use),I'd go with

the Petosa...

But the Petosa sells new for about $6,000.

I was referring to the two Milleniums I have here at the shop.....one only a
few months old at $3800 and one going on two years old at $3000.....
Our uses are quite different with the Orla, but you are correct in that the
bellow dynamics range is not near as good as a reeded accordion.....I hope I
didn't give that impression, it's certainly acceptable through headphones,
but apparently not in your use....:-).......not hearing for myself what
you're up against, a volume pedal might be a great idea!!
I haven't been playing the reedless much through large amps, however, I
probably should, just to get a feel for what you're commenting

on....thanks

Post by Bruce Metras
for the input!
Bruce

Post by Bruce Metras
headphones for quiet practice the Orlavox would fit the bill just
fine.....both play like a reeded accordion with good keyboards,
bass machines and bellow dynamics....

I don't know about the Petosa as I've never played one, but I have to
disagree with you on the Orlavox. In a high-volume situation like a Zydeco
band with amplified bass and guitar and drums, I've found the Orlavox to not
have anywhere near the bellows dynamic response that I would like. It's
either too loud or too soft. As I said before, I'm really considering using
a volume pedal on stage.
Dennis

[Dennis Gurwell]

Post by Bruce Metras
I haven't been playing the reedless much through large amps, however, I
probably should, just to get a feel for what you're commenting

on....thanks

Post by Bruce Metras
for the input!

Yes, it really changes things. I was quite happy with the dynamic range
while I was sitting in my living room playing through a small amp. But, on
most of my gigs, I am playing through P.A. systems. When we use our own PA
system, it's usually not a problem. Our lead singer usually controls the
sound from onstage, and he does a good job of bringing out the accordion
because he knows that the accordion, followed by the rub board, is the key
instrument in a Zydeco band. However, when we do larger concert venues
where the promoter provides a P.A. system and sound man, it can be a
problem. If the sound persons are not familiar with Zydeco and accordions,
we don't always get the sound we want.
Since the Orlavox's power module has an extra 1/4 inch output, I often hook
up my own "hotspot" monitor so that I can at least hear myself no matter
what the sound person does.

The cool thing about a reedless in a highly-amplified situation is that you
can hold the accordion inches away from the monitor with the volume all the
way up and the bellows all the way open, and get NO FEEDBACK! <grin>

I forgot. Where is your shop? I'd love to come up and play one of your
Milleniums for a comparison to my Orlavox.

Dennis

[Bruce Metras]

Hey Dennis!

I'm just up the block from you!.....about 20min north of San Francisco..

Bruce

From: "Dennis Gurwell"
I forgot. Where is your shop? I'd love to come up and play one of your
Milleniums for a comparison to my Orlavox.
Dennis

[Dennis Gurwell]

Oh! That's close! Well, I'll have to hop on a plane and head up there one
of these days. What city are you in or near?

Dennis

Post by Bruce Metras
Hey Dennis!
I'm just up the block from you!.....about 20min north of San Francisco..
Bruce

From: "Dennis Gurwell"
I forgot. Where is your shop? I'd love to come up and play one of your
Milleniums for a comparison to my Orlavox.
Dennis

[Carl Peterson]

Post by Bruce Metras
Hi Dennis!

From: "Dennis Gurwell"
Hi Bruce,

Post by Bruce Metras

Post by Bruce Metras
I were to choose at under $4k, (for professional use),I'd go with

the Petosa...

But the Petosa sells new for about $6,000.

I was referring to the two Milleniums I have here at the shop.....one
only a few months old at $3800 and one going on two years old at
$3000.....
Our uses are quite different with the Orla, but you are correct in
that the bellow dynamics range is not near as good as a reeded
accordion.....I hope I didn't give that impression, it's certainly
acceptable through headphones, but apparently not in your
use....:-).......not hearing for myself what you're up against, a
volume pedal might be a great idea!!
I haven't been playing the reedless much through large amps, however,
I probably should, just to get a feel for what you're commenting
on....thanks for the input!
Bruce

Maybe you should try the Titano, I do most of my playing solo but when I
play with a band I find that the bellows dynamic response is great. I
detect no difference between my Diamnond reed accordion and the Titano
reedless.

Carl

Post by Bruce Metras

Post by Bruce Metras
headphones for quiet practice the Orlavox would fit the bill just
fine.....both play like a reeded accordion with good keyboards,
bass machines and bellow dynamics....

I don't know about the Petosa as I've never played one, but I have to
disagree with you on the Orlavox. In a high-volume situation like a
Zydeco band with amplified bass and guitar and drums, I've found the
Orlavox to not have anywhere near the bellows dynamic response that
I would like. It's either too loud or too soft. As I said before,
I'm really considering using a volume pedal on stage.
Dennis

[Macromed5]

Do any of you folks have any comments from experience with
the Petosa and this spring problem (if it exists).

No spring problems for me, after three years playing a couple of sessions each
day... only mechanical issue I had was one key which had a lever pull out of a
socket, easily fixed.

I usually use the "Vintage Master" setting, and hit the others once in a blue
moon... I use the reedless almost exclusively for practice rather than
performing, so your mileage may vary.

Regards,
John Dowdell

[n***@gmail.com]

Post by chuckmac78
I am still shopping for a reedless accordion. I have been told to
stay away from models with contact springs because they have a
history of becoming loose.
I am looking at a Mint-Mint (according to the seller) Petosa
Millennium. I know they are supposed to be very good. This one is
supposed to be a year to a year and a half old. Do any of you folks
have any comments from experience with the Petosa and this spring
problem (if it exists). Also are their any other negatives to look
out for in the Petosa or any other Reedless for that matter. I
have.......done a lot of homework so there is no need to go to great
lengths explaining everything about a Reedless accordions. On the
other hand I am open to hear anything that might keep me out of
trouble.
Another question for a Orlavox Quartet owner or someone who would
know. I haven't been able to get much as far as a review about the
Orla. In the only review I could find, the reviewer doesn't give them
very good marks. Anyone have much on hands experience with one.
One last thing I'm wondering about. I've thought about buying a
Titano Master which has limited sound voices. I was wondering sense
it does have a midi out if I could operate all the functions
available on an Orla xm200 or xm800 sound modules. I have been told I
could use it for a controler with limited capabilities. I don't mind
doing the work at the module itself, as long as it could be done.
I just picked up a Roland sc-155 sound canvas on e-bay and I thought
I might be able to get some limited milage out of it using a Reedless
Midi Accordion as a controller. (If I ever find the one I want)
Thanks in advance for all the help
Chuck McClain

Hello Chuck, We have one such Petosa Millennium with Roland BK-7m for $2750.00.
Call 972-247-0071

[n***@gmail.com]

Chuck McClain

I found this listing but don't know if you are still looking. I have a Petosa Millennium Accordion that has hardly been used. Please let me know if you are still interested.

Mel Cohen

[ciao_accordion]

Post by n***@gmail.com
I found this listing but don't know if you are still looking. I have a Petosa Millennium Accordion that has hardly been used. Please let me know if you are still interested.
Mel Cohen

lol

chuck made his request 14 (fourteen) years ago plus a few days

and unfortunately dated old technology from the last century
is often hard to even give away.. Petosa discontinued their
private brand reedless in favor of just being a Roland dealer
(because the difference was that vast) about 9 years ago..

describing it as "hardly used" suggests it
was hardly worth using considering it's age

if you merely depreciate it at a modest $240 per year
that might get you closer to it's value