Excelsior Company ownership and Quality issues.

hi Ike

happy Holidays

the 6 reed Bass models were most notably
seen in the "Art Van Damme" models
known as
"AC"

during the Symphony Grand period of popularity with
the modern grillework and curved arch shift mechanism,
the Italian Factory was being established and bodies
began to be made there then brought to New York for
the actual accordion building, hence you can notice
small details of difference as the changes were made
and more and more build work and finioshing began
to be done in Italy

there is an chrome "electronic" grillework icon that was
used and applied by the US factory on some pro models
(indicating built in Mic's)

other than clues you may find as a skilled repairman,
it can be difficult to tell which country the modern
line came from, as every detail of the body and
action work of the bread and butter models was exectingly
duplicated... regardless of the quality differences
you notice in some things, the Excelsior Models (like the 304)
actually enjoyed well over 50 years in actual continuous production,
and parts from a 50's model would fit on one from the 80's

this is in marked difference to so many other "brands" that would hang
the same model plate regardless of what factory something
was built in (example.. guilietti (marked handcrafted) student
level accordions had differing scale designs and action placement)

similar to Excelsior, and also difficult to tell, at what
point did the Pancordion pro models become Italian made
(the clues in grillework changes are minute on the
Myron Floren Baton)

it is fun to try and sleuth it out

of course now the brand is srill part of the Pigini company
last i heard.. but my opinion of their quality during the
decades the brand flew under the CEMEX banner is top shelf
though i can certainly understand there may have been years,
even decades, of "growing pains" as the company which
originated in the USA in New York shifted its production to Italy.

Compagnia Elettronica Mechanica EXcelsior = CEMEX

something like that

at any rate, the 4 rocker shift professional models from
New York will likely remain among the most coveted
and legendary of all time for their many modern
innovations and excellence... to my knowledge all
models using the 1 rocker shift per reedblock
were built during the New York period

ciao

Ventura

Ike Milligan

2018-12-19 14:26:38 UTC

Post by Excelsior960
hi Ike
happy Holidays
the 6 reed Bass models were most notably
seen in the "Art Van Damme" models
known as
"AC"
during the Symphony Grand period of popularity with
the modern grillework and curved arch shift mechanism,
the Italian Factory was being established and bodies
began to be made there then brought to New York for
the actual accordion building, hence you can notice
small details of difference as the changes were made
and more and more build work and finioshing began
to be done in Italy
there is an chrome "electronic" grillework icon that was
used and applied by the US factory on some pro models
(indicating built in Mic's)
other than clues you may find as a skilled repairman,
it can be difficult to tell which country the modern
line came from, as every detail of the body and
action work of the bread and butter models was exectingly
duplicated... regardless of the quality differences
you notice in some things, the Excelsior Models (like the 304)
actually enjoyed well over 50 years in actual continuous production,
and parts from a 50's model would fit on one from the 80's
this is in marked difference to so many other "brands" that would hang
the same model plate regardless of what factory something
was built in (example.. guilietti (marked handcrafted) student
level accordions had differing scale designs and action placement)
similar to Excelsior, and also difficult to tell, at what
point did the Pancordion pro models become Italian made
(the clues in grillework changes are minute on the
Myron Floren Baton)
it is fun to try and sleuth it out
of course now the brand is srill part of the Pigini company
last i heard.. but my opinion of their quality during the
decades the brand flew under the CEMEX banner is top shelf
though i can certainly understand there may have been years,
even decades, of "growing pains" as the company which
originated in the USA in New York shifted its production to Italy.
Compagnia Elettronica Mechanica EXcelsior = CEMEX
something like that
at any rate, the 4 rocker shift professional models from
New York will likely remain among the most coveted
and legendary of all time for their many modern
innovations and excellence... to my knowledge all
models using the 1 rocker shift per reedblock
were built during the New York period
ciao
Ventura

Yeah happy holidays.
I don't see the original message body here.
I always suspected Excelsior oftewn put lower quality reeds in the bass
in a least some accordions, than it did in the treble. This particular
symphony grand had good treble reeds and had not been playe4d a lot, but
several of the lowest pitched bass reeds were frankly garbage and not
even wedge-shaped plates you find in the better low bass reeds from
beyond the 1920's. They got off center from no apparent reason, didn't
work, and the steel was not so good, but the accordion had the tear drop
shaped switches on the front that were used prior to the company
products going all the way down hill. BTW there were only 5 sets of bass
reeds, and nothing to write home about in quality.
With the replaced lowest bass reeds, it works fine and plays great overall.

snavoyosky

2018-12-21 03:09:49 UTC

Post by Ike Milligan
I know the NY Excelsior company first changed hands and quality suffered
even before the name was bought out by whoever is making the
Excelsior-shaped object now.
I found a vintage-looking symphony grand in my storage bins with the
tear-dropped shaped switches, but the lowest set of bass reeds was junk
and had to be changed out.
I was always of the opinion that Excelsior had generally used better
treble reeds than bass reeds throughout its history, but I wonder if
anyone here knows when the company was first sold and to whom.
Some of them had 6 sets of bass reeds and these may have been all good.
Whoever first bought them out seems to have been using and old stock of
treble reeds in them but saving money on the mechanical design by using
junk parts in the palm switch and bad glue on the bass valve pallets,
and who knows what.
A guy brought me some symphony grands he bought off eBay in need of
repair and he used to re-use the photos and list them again if they
didn't work out. You can't do that with eBay any more since they delete
everything after a transaction.

Excelsior of New York only constructed four models of Excelsior (professional quality). Their Excelsiola line (semi-professional quality) as well as their Accordiana line (student quality) were constructed in Italy within a factory built by Excelsior of New York.
The Excelsior factory in New York existed until circa 1964. They packed all their machinery etc. and sent it to the Excelsiola/Accordiana factory in Italy where it sat unopened for years, if not still unpacked. So Excelsior was not sold but given up to the Italian factory it built 15 or so years before it closed in America.

You spoke of tear-drop switches and those were placed on the Italian made instruments, initially the Excelsiola. So you have a much later Excelsior and made by Italy—not New York. The quality was not the same I might add, which brings us to the reeds you spoke about.

New York Excelsior reed sets were made by Bugari and by ‘set’ I mean treble and bass. Again, your instruments must be Italian made and if there is a difference between treble and bass quality, then there could be reed changing that went on.

The comment made about New York Excelsior finishing Italian made accordions is not true. I spent time at the New York factory and know this. Again, Italian factory built Excelsiola and Accordiana while New York factory built Excelsior…..until circa 1964. Then Italy chose to build Excelsior according to their design and specification I order to reap the high cost end of using the brand name.

Steve Navoyosky

Ike Milligan

2018-12-21 15:31:30 UTC

Excelsior of New York only constructed four models of Excelsior (professional quality). Their Excelsiola line (semi-professional quality) as well as their Accordiana line (student quality) were constructed in Italy within a factory built by Excelsior of New York.
The Excelsior factory in New York existed until circa 1964. They packed all their machinery etc. and sent it to the Excelsiola/Accordiana factory in Italy where it sat unopened for years, if not still unpacked. So Excelsior was not sold but given up to the Italian factory it built 15 or so years before it closed in America.
You spoke of tear-drop switches and those were placed on the Italian made instruments, initially the Excelsiola. So you have a much later Excelsior and made by Italy—not New York. The quality was not the same I might add, which brings us to the reeds you spoke about.
New York Excelsior reed sets were made by Bugari and by ‘set’ I mean treble and bass. Again, your instruments must be Italian made and if there is a difference between treble and bass quality, then there could be reed changing that went on.
The comment made about New York Excelsior finishing Italian made accordions is not true. I spent time at the New York factory and know this. Again, Italian factory built Excelsiola and Accordiana while New York factory built Excelsior…..until circa 1964. Then Italy chose to build Excelsior according to their design and specification I order to reap the high cost end of using the brand name.
Steve Navoyosky

I am not to contradict this, specifically. I only go by experience with
looking at instruments, and my opinion does not prove anything.
I never liked the bass reeds in any excelsior I have seen regardless of
the period it was built, however, I have at least one pre-war Model 9
from the 1930's and previously with the dates stamped on the blocks and
the New York address which they were known to do, neither of which I
have yet restored to be played.
I am told that Charles Magnante played Excelsior but was upset with them
at some point. Nothing more specific. He probably played at least as
good as the so-called "Art van Damme" model with the 6 sets of bass
reeds, one of which I have but haven't finished fixing up.
The model 914 Symphony Grand (5 bass sets) I reference now has the
tear-drop shaped white switches with good treble reeds, clean with
little apparent wear on the outside, but initially I could not play it,
since several of the lowest octave bass reeds were stuck and/or
off-center and I found them to appear to have inferior steel, and the
plates were not thicker on the tip end as with better quality bass reeds
of that period. The whole set and one reed plate of the next higher
(tercetti) set had to be replaced.
A fellow used to bring them to me which were apparently the Italian made
ones he got cheaply off eBay. A few years ago it was possible to re-use
the photos off eBay and re-list stuff you didn't like, even packing it
back up in the same box.
The treble reeds on these accordions seemed okay, but I thought the bass
reeds were not very good. As best I recollect, I found the palm switch
on at least one of these instruments was made with cheap molded plastic
materials and could not be repaired, at least with the skill set I had
then. Also the bass key valves were installed with contact cement and
rotated on the rods causing ciphering.
Later I had the opportunity to see an Excelsior-shaped object perhaps
made by a new company in which all the reeds were absolutely garbage.

Meanwhile, my Excelsior did have some palm switch problem due the two
guides over the flat metal pieces being plastic which had changed shape
dragging on the whole switch. This looked to be the same kind of plastic
which was used in the junk off eBay referenced earlier. The rest of the
switch was the normal metal plate, good springs, etc.
Once I replaced the bass set with used reeds and tuned them, and fixed
the palm switch the accordion sounded very good, I could even play some
Irish tunes bumping the left bellows casing either bellows direction
with my knee and a great reed response, though not impressed with the
remaining bass original reeds.
I would like to eventually restore an Excelsior model 9 from the pre-war
years to decide if the bass reeds in it are as good as some of the
hand-made reeds found in accordions form Italy of that era.

I think Excelsior eventually carried competition to even higher
aggressive levels than other companies, if such is possible, by churning
out acceptable quality professional accordions faster than other
companies could do, and competing on availability and price with volume
and self-promotion, which of course most of the successful makers did,
but sometimes possibly compromising on things which average professional
players might notice less, than with other companies which fell by the
wayside sooner, due to changes in demand, etc. which of course is
another story.

Ike Milligan

2018-12-21 15:37:10 UTC

Excelsior of New York only constructed four models of Excelsior
(professional quality). Their Excelsiola line (semi-professional
quality) as well as their Accordiana line (student quality) were
constructed in Italy within a factory built by Excelsior of New York.
The Excelsior factory in New York existed until circa 1964. They
packed all their machinery etc. and sent it to the
Excelsiola/Accordiana factory in Italy where it sat unopened for
years, if not still unpacked. So Excelsior was not sold but given up
to the Italian factory it built 15 or so years before it closed in
America.
You spoke of tear-drop switches and those were placed on the Italian
made instruments, initially the Excelsiola. So you have a much later
Excelsior and made by Italy—not New York. The quality was not the same
I might add, which brings us to the reeds you spoke about.
New York Excelsior reed sets were made by Bugari and by ‘set’ I mean
treble and bass. Again, your instruments must be Italian made and if
there is a difference between treble and bass quality, then there
could be reed changing that went on.
The comment made about New York Excelsior finishing Italian made
accordions is not true. I spent time at the New York factory and know
this. Again, Italian factory built Excelsiola and Accordiana while
New York factory built Excelsior…..until circa 1964. Then Italy chose
to build Excelsior according to their design and specification I order
to reap the high cost end of using the brand name.
Steve Navoyosky

I am not to contradict this, specifically. I only go by experience with
looking at instruments, and my opinion does not prove anything.
I never liked the bass reeds in any excelsior I have seen regardless of
the period it was built, however, I have at least one pre-war Model 9
from the 1930's and previously with the dates stamped on the blocks and
the New York address which they were known to do, neither of which I
have yet restored to be played.
I am told that Charles Magnante played Excelsior but was upset with them
at some point. Nothing more specific. He probably played at least as
good as the so-called "Art van Damme" model with the 6 sets of bass
reeds, one of which I have but haven't finished fixing up.
The model 914 Symphony Grand (5 bass sets) I reference now has the
tear-drop shaped white switches with good treble reeds, clean with
little apparent wear on the outside, but initially I could not play it,
since several of the lowest octave bass reeds were stuck and/or
off-center and I found them to appear to have inferior steel, and the
plates were not thicker on the tip end as with better quality bass reeds
of that period. The whole set and one reed plate of the next higher
(tercetti) set had to be replaced.
A fellow used to bring them to me which were apparently the Italian made
ones he got cheaply off eBay. A few years ago it was possible to re-use
the photos off eBay and re-list stuff you didn't like, even packing it
back up in the same box.
The treble reeds on these accordions seemed okay, but I thought the bass
reeds were not very good. As best I recollect, I found the palm switch
on at least one of these instruments was made with cheap molded plastic
materials and could not be repaired, at least with the skill set I had
then. Also the bass key valves were installed with contact cement and
rotated on the rods causing ciphering.
Later I had the opportunity to see an Excelsior-shaped object perhaps
made by a new company in which all the reeds were absolutely garbage.
Meanwhile, my Excelsior did have some palm switch problem due the two
guides over the flat metal pieces being plastic which had changed shape
dragging on the whole switch. This looked to be the same kind of plastic
which was used in the junk off eBay referenced earlier. The rest of the
switch was the normal metal plate, good springs, etc.
Once I replaced the bass set with used reeds and tuned them, and fixed
the palm switch the accordion sounded very good, I could even play some
Irish tunes bumping the left bellows casing either bellows direction
with my knee and a great reed response, though not impressed with the
remaining bass original reeds.
I would like to eventually restore an Excelsior model 9 from the pre-war
years to decide if the bass reeds in it are as good as some of the
hand-made reeds found in accordions form Italy of that era.
I think Excelsior eventually carried competition to even higher
aggressive levels than other companies, if such is possible, by churning
out acceptable quality professional accordions faster than other
companies could do, and competing on availability and price with volume
and self-promotion, which of course most of the successful makers did,
but sometimes possibly compromising on things which average professional
players might notice less, than with other companies which fell by the
wayside sooner, due to changes in demand, etc. which of course is
another story.

I think I meant I was bumping the right casing with my knee, not the
left. Did I say left?
All the reeds were well in tune and clean. Even the piccolo reeds, so
whatever problem this one had, it was well cared for, with only slight
tape wear on the bellows. It was probably retired due to the bass reeds
not Working.

Ike Milligan

2018-12-21 15:58:40 UTC

Excelsior of New York only constructed four models of Excelsior
(professional quality). Their Excelsiola line (semi-professional
quality) as well as their Accordiana line (student quality) were
constructed in Italy within a factory built by Excelsior of New York.
The Excelsior factory in New York existed until circa 1964. They
packed all their machinery etc. and sent it to the
Excelsiola/Accordiana factory in Italy where it sat unopened for
years, if not still unpacked. So Excelsior was not sold but given up
to the Italian factory it built 15 or so years before it closed in
America.
You spoke of tear-drop switches and those were placed on the Italian
made instruments, initially the Excelsiola. So you have a much later
Excelsior and made by Italy—not New York. The quality was not the
same I might add, which brings us to the reeds you spoke about.
New York Excelsior reed sets were made by Bugari and by ‘set’ I mean
treble and bass. Again, your instruments must be Italian made and if
there is a difference between treble and bass quality, then there
could be reed changing that went on.
The comment made about New York Excelsior finishing Italian made
accordions is not true. I spent time at the New York factory and know
this. Again, Italian factory built Excelsiola and Accordiana while
New York factory built Excelsior…..until circa 1964. Then Italy chose
to build Excelsior according to their design and specification I
order to reap the high cost end of using the brand name.
Steve Navoyosky

I am not to contradict this, specifically. I only go by experience
with looking at instruments, and my opinion does not prove anything.
I never liked the bass reeds in any excelsior I have seen regardless
of the period it was built, however, I have at least one pre-war Model
9 from the 1930's and previously with the dates stamped on the blocks
and the New York address which they were known to do, neither of which
I have yet restored to be played.
I am told that Charles Magnante played Excelsior but was upset with
them at some point. Nothing more specific. He probably played at least
as good as the so-called "Art van Damme" model with the 6 sets of bass
reeds, one of which I have but haven't finished fixing up.
The model 914 Symphony Grand (5 bass sets) I reference now has the
tear-drop shaped white switches with good treble reeds, clean with
little apparent wear on the outside, but initially I could not play
it, since several of the lowest octave bass reeds were stuck and/or
off-center and I found them to appear to have inferior steel, and the
plates were not thicker on the tip end as with better quality bass
reeds of that period. The whole set and one reed plate of the next
higher (tercetti) set had to be replaced.
A fellow used to bring them to me which were apparently the Italian
made ones he got cheaply off eBay. A few years ago it was possible to
re-use the photos off eBay and re-list stuff you didn't like, even
packing it back up in the same box.
The treble reeds on these accordions seemed okay, but I thought the
bass reeds were not very good. As best I recollect, I found the palm
switch on at least one of these instruments was made with cheap molded
plastic materials and could not be repaired, at least with the skill
set I had then. Also the bass key valves were installed with contact
cement and rotated on the rods causing ciphering.
Later I had the opportunity to see an Excelsior-shaped object perhaps
made by a new company in which all the reeds were absolutely garbage.
Meanwhile, my Excelsior did have some palm switch problem due the two
guides over the flat metal pieces being plastic which had changed
shape dragging on the whole switch. This looked to be the same kind of
plastic which was used in the junk off eBay referenced earlier. The
rest of the switch was the normal metal plate, good springs, etc.
Once I replaced the bass set with used reeds and tuned them, and fixed
the palm switch the accordion sounded very good, I could even play
some Irish tunes bumping the left bellows casing either bellows
direction with my knee and a great reed response, though not impressed
with the remaining bass original reeds.
I would like to eventually restore an Excelsior model 9 from the
pre-war years to decide if the bass reeds in it are as good as some of
the hand-made reeds found in accordions form Italy of that era.
I think Excelsior eventually carried competition to even higher
aggressive levels than other companies, if such is possible, by
churning out acceptable quality professional accordions faster than
other companies could do, and competing on availability and price with
volume and self-promotion, which of course most of the successful
makers did, but sometimes possibly compromising on things which
average professional players might notice less, than with other
companies which fell by the wayside sooner, due to changes in demand,
etc. which of course is another story.

Also I want to correct what I said about the bass key valves being put
on with contact cement on the eBay machine. It was more likely that PVA
(?) brownish kind of stuff that Hohner was using instead of reedblock
wax at one point.

Excelsior960

2018-12-21 15:44:43 UTC

bugari was established in 1961

obviously many many decades of Excelsiors
did not source reeds from Italy or from
Armando Bugari

CEMEX did unpack some of the NewYork machines...
and there were scads of sheets of ancient Cellulose
leftovers added to their store (mostly for repair)
and tons of spare parts... the machines in the
rafters may still be there
(i heard Bompezzo bought the old factory ... it is
down the back hill from Castlefidardo crossroads
at the park )

have no idea what all Pigini moved to their factory
after the acquisition, but they could not have
physically fit everything

doubtless much was lost

there has always been a lot of deception in that business
and the gradual shifting of USA factories and brands to
Italy were no exception

ciao

Ventura

Ike Milligan

2018-12-21 16:00:55 UTC

Post by Excelsior960
bugari was established in 1961
obviously many many decades of Excelsiors
did not source reeds from Italy or from
Armando Bugari
CEMEX did unpack some of the NewYork machines...
and there were scads of sheets of ancient Cellulose
leftovers added to their store (mostly for repair)
and tons of spare parts... the machines in the
rafters may still be there
(i heard Bompezzo bought the old factory ... it is
down the back hill from Castlefidardo crossroads
at the park )
have no idea what all Pigini moved to their factory
after the acquisition, but they could not have
physically fit everything
doubtless much was lost
there has always been a lot of deception in that business
and the gradual shifting of USA factories and brands to
Italy were no exception
ciao
Ventura

There were so-called "Bugari" reeds before then. Somebody named Bugari
was hand-making them, if my forensic analysis is correct.

Excelsior960

2018-12-21 16:17:37 UTC

Post by Ike Milligan
There were so-called "Bugari" reeds before then. Somebody named Bugari
was hand-making them, if my forensic analysis is correct.

one supposes Armando Bugari spent some years as
apprentice in one or several other factories
before he established his own... perhaps
he was one of the many people making reeds
in the CEMEX factory ?

CEMEX had gone to huge efforts to completely modernise the
reedmaking/finishing process, and had tooled and machined up
to an incredible level by the time(s) i visited there..

obviously making your own reeds saved a ton of
Lire and translated into more competitive pricing

and it's not the Spaghetti.. it is the Lunch break
that defined those guys

i will tell you about it sometime

ciao

Ventura

snavoyosky

2018-12-22 04:03:37 UTC

There were so-called "Bugari" reeds before then. Somebody named Bugari
was hand-making them, if my forensic analysis is correct.

The reedmaker was M. Bugari and he was the third partner along with the Pancotti brothers when Bundy started Excelsior in 1924.

Excelsior960

2018-12-21 15:55:09 UTC

oh Ike

i still use that white teardrop switch excelsior accordiana
for all my outside winter caroling duties... it is
the same one i played outside the pentagon after 9/11

amazingly still in tune after all these years and all the
use it has had (it is one well worn box)

yes the reeds are not the finest... on moist frozen nights
occasionally the metal expansion makes one stick

but by God they gave a student a lot for his money
back in the day.. good playing damn reliable instruments
and that is why my hat is off to the old company !

happy Holidays to ya'

ciao

Ventura

Ike Milligan

2018-12-21 16:07:45 UTC

Post by Excelsior960
oh Ike
i still use that white teardrop switch excelsior accordiana
for all my outside winter caroling duties... it is
the same one i played outside the pentagon after 9/11
amazingly still in tune after all these years and all the
use it has had (it is one well worn box)
yes the reeds are not the finest... on moist frozen nights
occasionally the metal expansion makes one stick
but by God they gave a student a lot for his money
back in the day.. good playing damn reliable instruments
and that is why my hat is off to the old company !
happy Holidays to ya'
ciao
Ventura

Happy holidays!
The Symphony Grand was not an Accordiana ind had like 10 or so tear-drop
white switches. The Art van Damme model had 6 sets of bass reeds. Or so
I am told.
Not to contradict that you have an Accordiona by Excelsior with white
teardrop switches.
Bobby Lyle said Magnante was upset with Excelsior. No company of course
survives all those years with the same people running it, like the
gradually increasing life expectancy was too gradual and maybe they ate
too much spaghetti.

snavoyosky

2018-12-22 04:10:19 UTC

Charlie wanted more for endorsing and selling Excelsiors and that was declined. Just a business deal. So Charlie proceeded to have several model accordions made with his name on them...... "Magnante" accordions. There are still some floating around.

Steve Navoyosky

Ike Milligan

2018-12-22 07:27:03 UTC