Discussion:
How to identify Binci handmade reeds
(too old to reply)
ike milligan
2006-12-06 01:55:52 UTC
Permalink
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Len Killick
2006-12-06 08:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Ike - is that a qestion or an advert for a new booklet? I thought you
would be telling us!
Johann Pascher
2006-12-06 20:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Killick
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Ike - is that a qestion or an advert for a new booklet? I thought you
would be telling !
I dont think you can easy see the difference.
depends what reeds you do have to compare.

Antonelli "tipo A mano" reeds and Binci are quite the same in dimensions
and appearance.
(Table with reed types available by voci-armoniche.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/privat/voci-armoniche-eng.htm)


Even the marks from filling are the same.
Sometimes you will find the punch sign "professional"


If you regularly order reeds you will hear and see the difference.

Johann
ike milligan
2006-12-07 21:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Killick
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Ike - is that a qestion or an advert for a new booklet? I thought you
would be telling us!
I ain't no expert on nothin'. i want to know how to identify the binci hand
made reeds.
Len Killick
2006-12-08 09:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ike milligan
Post by Len Killick
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Ike - is that a qestion or an advert for a new booklet? I thought you
would be telling us!
I ain't no expert on nothin'. i want to know how to identify the binci hand
made reeds.
Sorry, I was just joking!

Actually I didn't quite understand the question - are you trying to
identify a Binci reed from another makers ("finishers" perhaps is the
better term these days) or are you trying to identify a handmade reed
from a not-quite-so handmade reed?

Len
ike milligan
2006-12-08 17:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Killick
Post by ike milligan
Post by Len Killick
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Ike - is that a qestion or an advert for a new booklet? I thought you
would be telling us!
I ain't no expert on nothin'. i want to know how to identify the binci hand
made reeds.
Sorry, I was just joking!
Actually I didn't quite understand the question - are you trying to
identify a Binci reed from another makers ("finishers" perhaps is the
better term these days) or are you trying to identify a handmade reed
from a not-quite-so handmade reed?
Len
Somebody emailed me withnthe question and based on what I learned here, I
already told him that if these were hand-made Binci reeds they were
expensive. Also I told him I don't know how to identify them. When people
ask me questions, I try to get an answer. If I tell them to post in the NG
they usually don't follow up.
Personally I don't care whether a reed is hand-made or not. I go by the
sound and response in the accordion.
TommyMemphis
2006-12-07 03:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Here is the best way for you to do it.

1) Take Reed blocks out of accordion (Something reed grinders don't
normally do)

2) Clean off dust

3) Scratch your balls in confusion

4) Call Steve Navoyosky

5) Post 5 months later as if you knew this all the time.
Geek
2006-12-07 09:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Hand made reeds are blue around the rivet face + side. You can have a
look at:

http://www.bymarco.it/articoloview.php?id=7

a mano = spring steel is blue around the rivet face and also blue on
the side. The reed has been cut and then hardened later on.

tipo a mano = spring steel is only blue on the face. The reed as been
hardened and then stamped later on.

Regards,
Geek
Johann Pascher
2006-12-07 14:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geek
Post by ike milligan
How to identify Binci hand made reeds by looking at one?
Hand made reeds are blue around the rivet face + side. You can have a
http://www.bymarco.it/articoloview.php?id=7
a mano = spring steel is blue around the rivet face and also blue on
the side. The reed has been cut and then hardened later on.
tipo a mano = spring steel is only blue on the face. The reed as been
hardened and then stamped later on.
Regards,
Geek
Hi Geek,

sorry this is not correct.


"A mano and Tipo a mano" are usual cut from a narrow band of blued steel
band (tape).
Today all reeds are hardened and then pushed (stamped) later on.
The technique only varies a bit if narrow tape steel is used.
It is true that one can see the blue sides, if narrow steel tape is
used, but only in the region of the full width of the tongue, near the
revet.
If the hardening would have bin done after cutting the tongue the
complete sides would be blue. The reed profile is always grinded onto
the reed in the same way.
Loading Image...

Have a close look at the picture again and you notice the sides are only
blue near the revet.
Keep in mind that all is advertising!
May table compeers the remaining differences, difficult to extract from
the original papers provided by voci armoniche.

The only difference on some better reeds is that the final grinding (may
be referred as filling) is done by hand and not with automatized machinery.
With final grinding the first tuning process is meant to tuned the reed
a bit higher as needed in the accordion.
This (all may comment) is the case as used today in reed factory's
especially in Italy.
Compare may table provided and you see the differences on different reed
quality.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/privat/voci-armoniche-eng.htm


Johann
k***@home.com
2006-12-08 03:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Ike, I've been asking this question--in general, i.e., not limited to
Binci--for 30 years.
I'm convinced that no one but an expert can really tell the difference
between the two upper grades of "hand finished" and "hand made". And then
where does the line get drawn between those two fuzzy distinctions?
Shouldn't you be digging the ore, smelting it, tempering the steel, etc,
etc. etc. for 'hand made"?

While the Voci Armoniche chart is good, in the absence of having studying
the various reeds side by side, it remains difficult to tell. And the reed
manufacturers have become expert at faking "hand made". If you read all the
ad copy from the various manufacturer to this day, they all advertise "hand
made" in their better accordions, even though it is well known that truly
hand made reeds are all but extinct.

A handful of independent reed finishers who start with raw product from
salpa or whomever finish them so carefully that one might call them hand
made.

Julio Guilietti once told me that there were very few (three if memory
serves) actual reed factories in italy. Everybody was just buying the reeds
and hand finishing them, but somehow they became "a mano" by the time they
got into the accordions and through the sales department.

There was one reed finisher who stamped his reeds "carloni" who clearly was
extensively hand finishing them because you could see a convex shape filed
on the reed tongue--a rare and painstaking effort. Outstanding response and
sound.

On the other hand, I've got a 1923 colombo that was made in san francisco,
and the reeds are very obviously "hand made" but the sound isn't so great
anyway.

I'm going to order a set sometime from
http://www.harmonikas.cz/en/index.html, who produce electro erosive reeds
gapped to extraordinary critical tolerances. I'll bet they sound as good as
any hand made reeds.

Meanwhile I'll believe Frank R when he sells me the "hand made" Binci's.
Or that my stradovox eldorado with the "Magnatera" reeds in it are the "best
ever hand made reeds".

Right.

Cheers,

Bill
Len Killick
2006-12-08 09:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@home.com
Ike, I've been asking this question--in general, i.e., not limited to
Binci--for 30 years.
I'm convinced that no one but an expert can really tell the difference
between the two upper grades of "hand finished" and "hand made". And then
where does the line get drawn between those two fuzzy distinctions?
Shouldn't you be digging the ore, smelting it, tempering the steel, etc,
etc. etc. for 'hand made"?
While the Voci Armoniche chart is good, in the absence of having studying
the various reeds side by side, it remains difficult to tell. And the reed
manufacturers have become expert at faking "hand made". If you read all the
ad copy from the various manufacturer to this day, they all advertise "hand
made" in their better accordions, even though it is well known that truly
hand made reeds are all but extinct.
A handful of independent reed finishers who start with raw product from
salpa or whomever finish them so carefully that one might call them hand
made.
Julio Guilietti once told me that there were very few (three if memory
serves) actual reed factories in italy. Everybody was just buying the reeds
and hand finishing them, but somehow they became "a mano" by the time they
got into the accordions and through the sales department.
There was one reed finisher who stamped his reeds "carloni" who clearly was
extensively hand finishing them because you could see a convex shape filed
on the reed tongue--a rare and painstaking effort. Outstanding response and
sound.
On the other hand, I've got a 1923 colombo that was made in san francisco,
and the reeds are very obviously "hand made" but the sound isn't so great
anyway.
I'm going to order a set sometime from
http://www.harmonikas.cz/en/index.html, who produce electro erosive reeds
gapped to extraordinary critical tolerances. I'll bet they sound as good as
any hand made reeds.
Meanwhile I'll believe Frank R when he sells me the "hand made" Binci's.
Or that my stradovox eldorado with the "Magnatera" reeds in it are the "best
ever hand made reeds".
Right.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill,

I think you've hit the nail on the head, or is it the reed on the
rivet, here as - just like with the complete instrument - what is the
real definition of hand made?

Looking from one point of view, no reeds are hand made these days as
there is always a machine involved; while from the other point of view
all reeds are hand made as they involve a human hand at some stage.

There is a lot lost in the translation from Italien into the english
"hand finished" and "hand made" and what that ends up as in sales
brochures... but that's a whole other subject!

In my classes a hand made reed was defined as one where the reed tongue
has been cut from a strip of steel rather than stamped out of a sheet.
It should of course be fitted to a suitably superior reed plate, but
that wasn't so clearly defined. This can usually be identified simply
by the equally wide rivet-end of the reed for different sized reed
tongues, and the blue edge to wide end (as it's not been cut/stamped at
all at the rivet end). This was, though, some years ago and such a
simple identification might not work so well now as I'm sure there's
someone out there busily perfecting a metallic paint to put on the ends
of their cheaper reeds!

For the rest it comes down to just looking at reeds and deciding from
experience what it is. There are usuallly tell-tale signs in the way
the reed has been worked to tune it, but even that can no always tell
the truth. You could also say who cares, as long as it works the way I
want it to, plays well, can be tuned accurately and sounds good. So in
the end identifying reed quality is just like choosing the best wine!

On the Czech reeds - I use them (as well as others) and like them. They
are much improved since the old days when they were looked on as poor
relations in the reed making world. They have reeds of all qualities
available and I have tried them all. My own feeling is that the
"Professional" quality (aka Tipo-A-Mano) are the best value for money.
They are hard to tell apart from the A-Mano and significantly lower
price.

Len
c***@cablespeed.com
2006-12-08 21:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Killick
Post by k***@home.com
Ike, I've been asking this question--in general, i.e., not limited to
Binci--for 30 years.
I'm convinced that no one but an expert can really tell the difference
between the two upper grades of "hand finished" and "hand made". And then
where does the line get drawn between those two fuzzy distinctions?
Shouldn't you be digging the ore, smelting it, tempering the steel, etc,
etc. etc. for 'hand made"?
While the Voci Armoniche chart is good, in the absence of having studying
the various reeds side by side, it remains difficult to tell. And the reed
manufacturers have become expert at faking "hand made". If you read all the
ad copy from the various manufacturer to this day, they all advertise "hand
made" in their better accordions, even though it is well known that truly
hand made reeds are all but extinct.
A handful of independent reed finishers who start with raw product from
salpa or whomever finish them so carefully that one might call them hand
made.
Julio Guilietti once told me that there were very few (three if memory
serves) actual reed factories in italy. Everybody was just buying the reeds
and hand finishing them, but somehow they became "a mano" by the time they
got into the accordions and through the sales department.
There was one reed finisher who stamped his reeds "carloni" who clearly was
extensively hand finishing them because you could see a convex shape filed
on the reed tongue--a rare and painstaking effort. Outstanding response and
sound.
On the other hand, I've got a 1923 colombo that was made in san francisco,
and the reeds are very obviously "hand made" but the sound isn't so great
anyway.
I'm going to order a set sometime from
http://www.harmonikas.cz/en/index.html, who produce electro erosive reeds
gapped to extraordinary critical tolerances. I'll bet they sound as good as
any hand made reeds.
Meanwhile I'll believe Frank R when he sells me the "hand made" Binci's.
Or that my stradovox eldorado with the "Magnatera" reeds in it are the "best
ever hand made reeds".
Right.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill,
I think you've hit the nail on the head, or is it the reed on the
rivet, here as - just like with the complete instrument - what is the
real definition of hand made?
Looking from one point of view, no reeds are hand made these days as
there is always a machine involved; while from the other point of view
all reeds are hand made as they involve a human hand at some stage.
There is a lot lost in the translation from Italien into the english
"hand finished" and "hand made" and what that ends up as in sales
brochures... but that's a whole other subject!
In my classes a hand made reed was defined as one where the reed tongue
has been cut from a strip of steel rather than stamped out of a sheet.
It should of course be fitted to a suitably superior reed plate, but
that wasn't so clearly defined. This can usually be identified simply
by the equally wide rivet-end of the reed for different sized reed
tongues, and the blue edge to wide end (as it's not been cut/stamped at
all at the rivet end). This was, though, some years ago and such a
simple identification might not work so well now as I'm sure there's
someone out there busily perfecting a metallic paint to put on the ends
of their cheaper reeds!
For the rest it comes down to just looking at reeds and deciding from
experience what it is. There are usuallly tell-tale signs in the way
the reed has been worked to tune it, but even that can no always tell
the truth. You could also say who cares, as long as it works the way I
want it to, plays well, can be tuned accurately and sounds good. So in
the end identifying reed quality is just like choosing the best wine!
On the Czech reeds - I use them (as well as others) and like them. They
are much improved since the old days when they were looked on as poor
relations in the reed making world. They have reeds of all qualities
available and I have tried them all. My own feeling is that the
"Professional" quality (aka Tipo-A-Mano) are the best value for money.
They are hard to tell apart from the A-Mano and significantly lower
price.
Len
Len,
Regarding the "metallic paint" - not necessary. Any gunshop has a
product called
instant blueing that will oxidize the metal to produce a blued finish
such as on gun barrels. Just clean the steel and apply with a
cotton swab and wash off. Also somes in black and brown finish.

John C.
Pukovnik
2006-12-08 23:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Killick
On the Czech reeds - I use them (as well as others) and like them. They
are much improved since the old days when they were looked on as poor
relations in the reed making world. They have reeds of all qualities
available and I have tried them all. My own feeling is that the
"Professional" quality (aka Tipo-A-Mano) are the best value for money.
They are hard to tell apart from the A-Mano and significantly lower
price.
Hello Len!

Can you tell me the prices of those Czech reeds. What is the difference in
price between A-Mano and Tipo-A-Mano?


Thanks,

Damir
k***@home.com
2006-12-13 04:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for your comments Len.
I'm glad to hear that that Czech reeds sound good. Spark erosion technology
can be very precise.
They seem very willing to work with customers to individual specs as well.

best,

Bill
Rashid
2006-12-18 13:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Here's how to ID _BETTER_ reeds:

- buy a .0005 shim stock (McMaster). Strip is ~12 x .5
- fashion a feeler gage out of it.
- with it, check the gaps between reeds' sides and the reed's opening
- the top of the line reeds, you will feel the gage kind of dragging in
the gap,
indicating a good fit
- with lesser reeds, the gage will be real loose in there and you will
not feel the drag

0.0005 is about .012mm and is the smaller, tighest fit you'd want to
have on an
instrument. Any less than that is nearly impossible to make and the
reeds will
jam with the slightest temp variation (as alum and carbon steels have
difft temp
expansion coefficients).

Tighter fits translate to less air reqd to play the instrument. Most
importantly,
the reeds will have much fuller sound, rich with harmonics.

Hand made reeds are ONLY made in exUSSR (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus). No
Western country can possibly afford the effort required. There's 0
market for such instruments in the
US.

The metal is hand cut, using special shears, hand filed - both for
tightest fit in the
reed opening (and those are also hand filed, BTW) and proper thickness
profile.It
takes 8min, on average, per reed. Professional instruments contain
close to 1000 reeds.

That's 8000 mins, JUST to make reeds. ~130 hours. ~16 8hr days.


The rest of the world first grinds reeds thickness-profile using
surface grinders and then STAMPS reeds out. The reed openings in the
reed plates are also STAMPED out.

Anyone can imagine that is nearly impossible to maintain tightest fit
with this process. Even
if it is nice in the beginning, punches and dies will wear off quickly
and gaps will increase.

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