Using mylar instead of leather.

[Jim C]

Here is a post that explains how to use mylar instead of leather to
make an improvement in the reeds.

Chinese Accordions - the reeds.
These reeds are now no different then Hohner reeds.There are slight
variations as to carbon content but that is it between the different
companies. There
IS a problem with stock Chinese Accordions, 100 percent true. It is
in the
leather, not the reeds. The Italian leathers are soaked in a solution
which makes
them stiffer and hold their shape. On the Chinese Accordions the
leather is
simular in quality but is NOT soaked in a solution or more properly
the same
solution as their Italian counterparts. What happens is the leather
is limper by
comparison and leather ( ALL ) is subject to moisture and temperature
conditions.
What I am having to do here is strip off ALL of the reeds, strip the
leathers
off, clean reeds and reglue ( use super glue gel ). Then I cut 4mil
Mylar in
4mm wide strips ( frosted on one side for better adhesion ( with
standard
super glue ( liquid ) ) and these strips act as springs which hold
the leather in
shape. While the Italian counterparts are using a treated leather
this is NOT
to say that eventually the leather becomes limp ( from use ) and does
the
exact same thing as these Chinese Accordions. I am a repair man and
can vouch for
the exact same problems with Excelsior, Scandalli, Soprani etc. So,
my
solution is a permenant solution to an age old problem. These
conditions with leather
are excellerated when one plays in the Winter months for an example (
any
brand )
Then, on the Chinese Accordions there is NOT enough Rosin in the
mixture and
the Beeswax is actually rather soft. It's melting point is only 147
degrees. I
reuse the exact same wax that I strip off and simply add Rosin into
the
mixture. Rosin and Turpentine are cousins, one is the product of the
other. The
Turpentine is used as a solvent for the Rosin to make it a good mix
with the
Beeswax. The result of the mixture is harder wax and a higher melting
point of 187
degrees.
All of the above concidered the rest of the Chinese Accordion is
rather a
great product, especially bellows quality.
Sour notes, gurgles, slightly out of tune etc are nothing more then
leather
problems which seemingly get worse as you play the Accordion because
of the
leathers shifting positions.
Tuning. Once all the above is taken into concideration the tuning is
actually
done correctly and accurately on these Accordions. "Glue" failure of
the
leather to the reed plates is a major factor in the Chinese Accordion
breakdown /
Failure rate. The traditional material ( Italian, German etc ) is
reduced
Shellac. The problem is however is once the Accordion leaves the
factory the
leather absorbs moisture in shipping / storage. This can happen with
simply
temperature differences between storage and playing the instrument *
and can happen
with ANY brand. If the Accordion is stored in 50 degrees for an
example but
then immediately played say at 70 degrees or above ( trunk of car in
Winter and
then played in a Dance Hall that same evening ) Flashing Condensation
is formed
on the leathers. Playing the Accordion then dries the leather out
rapidly....usually in a curled outwards position which is the playing
position and it
gets stuck there.
What I am doing to my Accordions is a permenant fix. I am glueing all
the
leathers down with Super Glue Gel.
Anders
"Andy" Bakke [:|\\|//|:] AccordionMan
1400 S. Scenic Way
St. Augustine, Fl. 32084
Mobile ( 904) 806-2587http://www.AccordionMan.net
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[John C.]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather. But
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather if
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

John C.

Post by Jim C
Here is a post that explains how to use mylar instead of leather to
make an improvement in the reeds.

What I am having to do here is strip off ALL of the reeds, strip

the

Post by Jim C

leathers
off, clean reeds and reglue ( use super glue gel ). Then I cut

4mil

Post by Jim C

Mylar in
4mm wide strips ( frosted on one side for better adhesion ( with
standard
super glue ( liquid ) ) and these strips act as springs which hold
the leather in
shape.

[Theodore Kloba]

Post by John C.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather. But
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather if
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

Sam Shublom sells the mylar valves, "ventile" on his site:

[Theodore Kloba]

Post by John C.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather. But
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather if
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

Stupid Netscape 7.1, Ctrl+V is POST instead of PASTE?!?

Anyway here is where Sam sells the "ventile":

http://www.geocities.com/shublom/supplies.html

Look closely and notice that they're not just a single piece of mylar,
but layered so that they are thicker at the root.

He also sells standard leather and leather with mylar boosters...

[Ike Milligan]

Post by Theodore Kloba

Post by John C.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather. But
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather if
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

Stupid Netscape 7.1, Ctrl+V is POST instead of PASTE?!?
http://www.geocities.com/shublom/supplies.html
Look closely and notice that they're not just a single piece of mylar,
but layered so that they are thicker at the root.
He also sells standard leather and leather with mylar boosters...

What is mylar? I was thinking it might be hard and make a noise when
closing. I thought nowadays the ventilli were made of vinyl with mylar
boosters, or is mylar a type of vinyl?

[Dave Garland]

It was a dark and stormy night when "Ike Milligan"

Post by Ike Milligan
What is mylar? I was thinking it might be hard and make a noise when
closing. I thought nowadays the ventilli were made of vinyl with mylar
boosters, or is mylar a type of vinyl?

Looks like vinyl is a fairly broad group of polyvinyl chloride plastics
with various additives to achieve various properties.
http://www.vinylinfo.org/materialvinyl/process.html Mylar (TM DuPont)
is a polyester film (a different plastic altogether) that has been
mechanically processed, and not a type of vinyl.
http://www.dupontteijinfilms.com/datasheets/mylar/overview/h67160.pdf

I'm sure vinyl can be soft. I don't know about Mylar, but it seems like
the processing (which stretches it in one or both directions) would make
it harder.

[J. Coon]

Post by Dave Garland
It was a dark and stormy night when "Ike Milligan"

Post by Ike Milligan
What is mylar? I was thinking it might be hard and make a noise when
closing. I thought nowadays the ventilli were made of vinyl with mylar
boosters, or is mylar a type of vinyl?

Looks like vinyl is a fairly broad group of polyvinyl chloride plastics
with various additives to achieve various properties.
http://www.vinylinfo.org/materialvinyl/process.html Mylar (TM DuPont)
is a polyester film (a different plastic altogether) that has been
mechanically processed, and not a type of vinyl.
http://www.dupontteijinfilms.com/datasheets/mylar/overview/h67160.pdf
I'm sure vinyl can be soft. I don't know about Mylar, but it seems like
the processing (which stretches it in one or both directions) would make
it harder.

I think PVC would stick to the metal surface after a while. I've had
paper stick to the vinyl three ring binders after setting undisturbed
for a while.

[Jim C]

Post by John C.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather. But
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather if
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

I think Andy may have just been using the mylar as helper springs, but
there are mylar reed valves available and they should be easy to make.
Here are some web pages to check out.

A tool to temporary fix leathers,
http://www.talkingreeds.co.uk/PAGE8.html

THe bottom of this ppage talks about using mylar
http://home.att.net/~n4dee/fixit.htm

http://www.summitcellularcenter.com/Accordion-Accordian-Plastic-Reed-Leathers,i3714658550,c16218.html






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[Ike Milligan]

I would strongly caution anyone who reads this.

Post by Jim C
Here is a post that explains how to use mylar instead of leather to
make an improvement in the reeds.

Chinese Accordions - the reeds.
These reeds are now no different then Hohner reeds.There are slight
variations as to carbon content but that is it between the different
companies. There
IS a problem with stock Chinese Accordions, 100 percent true. It is
in the
leather, not the reeds. The Italian leathers are soaked in a solution
which makes
them stiffer and hold their shape. On the Chinese Accordions the
leather is
simular in quality but is NOT soaked in a solution or more properly
the same
solution as their Italian counterparts. What happens is the leather
is limper by
comparison and leather ( ALL ) is subject to moisture and temperature
conditions.
What I am having to do here is strip off ALL of the reeds, strip the
leathers
off, clean reeds and reglue ( use super glue gel ). Then I cut 4mil
Mylar in
4mm wide strips ( frosted on one side for better adhesion ( with
standard
super glue ( liquid ) ) and these strips act as springs which hold
the leather in
shape. While the Italian counterparts are using a treated leather
this is NOT
to say that eventually the leather becomes limp ( from use ) and does
the
exact same thing as these Chinese Accordions. I am a repair man and
can vouch for
the exact same problems with Excelsior, Scandalli, Soprani etc. So,
my
solution is a permenant solution to an age old problem. These
conditions with leather
are excellerated when one plays in the Winter months for an example (
any
brand )
Then, on the Chinese Accordions there is NOT enough Rosin in the
mixture and
the Beeswax is actually rather soft. It's melting point is only 147
degrees. I
reuse the exact same wax that I strip off and simply add Rosin into
the
mixture. Rosin and Turpentine are cousins, one is the product of the
other. The
Turpentine is used as a solvent for the Rosin to make it a good mix
with the
Beeswax. The result of the mixture is harder wax and a higher melting
point of 187
degrees.
All of the above concidered the rest of the Chinese Accordion is
rather a
great product, especially bellows quality.
Sour notes, gurgles, slightly out of tune etc are nothing more then
leather
problems which seemingly get worse as you play the Accordion because
of the
leathers shifting positions.
Tuning. Once all the above is taken into concideration the tuning is
actually
done correctly and accurately on these Accordions. "Glue" failure of
the
leather to the reed plates is a major factor in the Chinese Accordion
breakdown /
Failure rate. The traditional material ( Italian, German etc ) is
reduced
Shellac. The problem is however is once the Accordion leaves the
factory the
leather absorbs moisture in shipping / storage. This can happen with
simply
temperature differences between storage and playing the instrument *
and can happen
with ANY brand. If the Accordion is stored in 50 degrees for an
example but
then immediately played say at 70 degrees or above ( trunk of car in
Winter and
then played in a Dance Hall that same evening ) Flashing Condensation
is formed
on the leathers. Playing the Accordion then dries the leather out
rapidly....usually in a curled outwards position which is the playing
position and it
gets stuck there.
What I am doing to my Accordions is a permenant fix. I am glueing all
the
leathers down with Super Glue Gel.
Anders
"Andy" Bakke [:|\\|//|:] AccordionMan
1400 S. Scenic Way
St. Augustine, Fl. 32084
Mobile ( 904) 806-2587http://www.AccordionMan.net
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[Jim C]

The synthetic reed vavles seem to be made of one two or three strips
of mylar. The first strip is the full length, the second is about 1/2
length and if there is a third layer it is shorter.
Superglue can be cleaned off easily using acetone, so it shouldn't be a
problem. I think the gell type would be easier to work with than the
the runny liquid that I always end up gluing my fingers together with.

However, I think if you were going to do more than a few reeds, it
would be a lot better to just buy them already made up. I don't think
they are that expensive.

Really-Reply-To: "Ike Milligan"
I would strongly caution anyone who reads this.

Post by Jim C
Here is a post that explains how to use mylar instead of leather to
make an improvement in the reeds.

Chinese Accordions - the reeds.
These reeds are now no different then Hohner reeds.There are

slight

Post by Jim C

variations as to carbon content but that is it between the

different

Post by Jim C

companies. There
IS a problem with stock Chinese Accordions, 100 percent true. It

is

Post by Jim C

in the
leather, not the reeds. The Italian leathers are soaked in a

solution

Post by Jim C

which makes
them stiffer and hold their shape. On the Chinese Accordions the
leather is
simular in quality but is NOT soaked in a solution or more

properly

Post by Jim C

the same
solution as their Italian counterparts. What happens is the

leather

Post by Jim C

is limper by
comparison and leather ( ALL ) is subject to moisture and

temperature

Post by Jim C

conditions.
What I am having to do here is strip off ALL of the reeds, strip

the

Post by Jim C

leathers
off, clean reeds and reglue ( use super glue gel ). Then I cut

4mil

Post by Jim C

Mylar in
4mm wide strips ( frosted on one side for better adhesion ( with
standard
super glue ( liquid ) ) and these strips act as springs which

hold

Post by Jim C

the leather in
shape. While the Italian counterparts are using a treated leather
this is NOT
to say that eventually the leather becomes limp ( from use ) and

does

Post by Jim C

the
exact same thing as these Chinese Accordions. I am a repair man

and

Post by Jim C

can vouch for
the exact same problems with Excelsior, Scandalli, Soprani etc.

So,

Post by Jim C

my
solution is a permenant solution to an age old problem. These
conditions with leather
are excellerated when one plays in the Winter months for an

example (

Post by Jim C

any
brand )
Then, on the Chinese Accordions there is NOT enough Rosin in the
mixture and
the Beeswax is actually rather soft. It's melting point is only

147

Post by Jim C

degrees. I
reuse the exact same wax that I strip off and simply add Rosin

into

Post by Jim C

the
mixture. Rosin and Turpentine are cousins, one is the product of

the

Post by Jim C

other. The
Turpentine is used as a solvent for the Rosin to make it a good

mix

Post by Jim C

with the
Beeswax. The result of the mixture is harder wax and a higher

melting

Post by Jim C

point of 187
degrees.
All of the above concidered the rest of the Chinese Accordion is
rather a
great product, especially bellows quality.
Sour notes, gurgles, slightly out of tune etc are nothing more

then

Post by Jim C

leather
problems which seemingly get worse as you play the Accordion

because

Post by Jim C

of the
leathers shifting positions.
Tuning. Once all the above is taken into concideration the tuning

is

Post by Jim C

actually
done correctly and accurately on these Accordions. "Glue" failure

of

Post by Jim C

the
leather to the reed plates is a major factor in the Chinese

Accordion

Post by Jim C

breakdown /
Failure rate. The traditional material ( Italian, German etc ) is
reduced
Shellac. The problem is however is once the Accordion leaves the
factory the
leather absorbs moisture in shipping / storage. This can happen

with

Post by Jim C

simply
temperature differences between storage and playing the

instrument *

Post by Jim C

and can happen
with ANY brand. If the Accordion is stored in 50 degrees for an
example but
then immediately played say at 70 degrees or above ( trunk of car

in

Post by Jim C

Winter and
then played in a Dance Hall that same evening ) Flashing

Condensation

Post by Jim C

is formed
on the leathers. Playing the Accordion then dries the leather out
rapidly....usually in a curled outwards position which is the

playing

Post by Jim C

position and it
gets stuck there.
What I am doing to my Accordions is a permenant fix. I am glueing

all

Post by Jim C

the
leathers down with Super Glue Gel.
Anders
"Andy" Bakke [:|\\|//|:] AccordionMan
1400 S. Scenic Way
St. Augustine, Fl. 32084
Mobile ( 904) 806-2587http://www.AccordionMan.net
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[Jim C]

Post by John C.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but the way I read Andy's post was that he
was using the mylar as springs on top of the leather to keep them
stiff and in place rather than as a substitute for the leather.

But

Post by John C.
I don't see why the mylar could not be substituted for the leather

if

Post by John C.
it had the right degree of springiness and weight?

I knew I had seen them someplace
http://www.geocities.com/shublom/supplies.html
They are pretty cheap too. I don't think I'd want to cut a dozen when
you could buy them for about $3 a doz.

Here is a larger picture
Loading Image...





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[Ricky Dietsch]

I owned a Hohner Atlantic that had mylar reed valves. They worked fine
unless the accordion sat around for and extended period. The mylar would
adhere to the reed block and in some cases it was necessary to open the box
up and lift the valve off the box. It was almost like a static cling thing.

The bigger ther reed, the more layers of mylar were needed to get the
stiffness needed. The big bass reeds had 4 layers of mylar, kinda like the
old leaf springs on cars and trucks.

Ricky

[Ike Milligan]

Post by Ricky Dietsch
I owned a Hohner Atlantic that had mylar reed valves. They worked fine
unless the accordion sat around for and extended period. The mylar would
adhere to the reed block and in some cases it was necessary to open the box
up and lift the valve off the box. It was almost like a static cling thing.
The bigger ther reed, the more layers of mylar were needed to get the
stiffness needed. The big bass reeds had 4 layers of mylar, kinda like the
old leaf springs on cars and trucks.
Ricky

The reason theyt stick is that an oily substance was mixed in the reed wax
which leached out onto the reed plates, especially when the accordion got
hot inside. To fix this problem, cut some paper into strips and soak the
strip you are using in lighter fluid. Drip some on the plastic valve and
lift it up carefully without creasing it. Then slide the paper with the
lighter fluid under the plastic and press gently while pulling the paper out
to clean out the oil. repeat the process under the leaves because if they
have the oil on them, they will not allow the valve to go back down
normally. The best ventilli are made from vinyl film possibly with mylar
leaves, since the vinyl is quiet. The imitation leather ones may now be
better made than they used to be. The old ones used to age and turn into a
cardboard like substance that buzzed.

[John C.]

I found the following description on the Dupont Web Site:

Overview

Mylar® is an extraordinarily strong polyester film that grew out
of the development of Dacron® in the early 1950s. During the 1960s
cellophane gave way steadily to Mylar® with its superior strength,
heat resistance, and excellent insulating properties. The unique
qualities of Mylar® made new consumer markets in magnetic audio
and video tape, capacitor dielectrics, packaging and batteries
possible. By the 1970s, Mylar® had become DuPont's best-selling film,
despite mounting competition. Mylar® is now a product of a joint
venture, DuPont Teijin Films.

Mylar is an insulating plastic that can exhibit a variety of
properties depending on how its made. It can be very soft or very
hard, springy or limp, thin or thick depending on what it is to be
used for.

My guess is that if someone in industry was motivated and that there
was a significant profit in it, that it could be made to simulate the
reed leathers very closely. Unfortunately, there are probally not
enough accordions in the world to make it profitable for a company
like Dupont.

Sigh...

John C.

Post by Ike Milligan
What is mylar? I was thinking it might be hard and make a noise

when

Post by Ike Milligan
closing. I thought nowadays the ventilli were made of vinyl with

mylar

Post by Ike Milligan
boosters, or is mylar a type of vinyl?
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Post by Ike Milligan
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